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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 22 2012 09:43 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. I get your point, but I don't recall multiple eye-witnesses to that event, or 911 calls that actually recorded it happening. There's no way for us to know for sure whether Zimmerman is guilty, and we should be conscious of that. It's ultimately up to a jury. That being said, the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is a crime on its own. Unless there's a mountain of exculpatory evidence or other mitigating factors that just haven't been made public (for some inexplicable reason), this guy should be behind bars awaiting trial.
i am as surprised by you that he hasn't been arrested. however, they need evidence to support an arrest and they apparently dont have enough. i would think there is enough circumstantial evidence, but they apparently disagree.
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On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
Police and civilians are and should be held to different standards. The man was told to not follow the teenager specifically because he has no authority to do anything about it. Also, a police officer wouldn't even have authority to shoot in that situation anyway.
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On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back.
He could have had the gun out and the 17 year old might have struggled over the gun before it going off.
An urban environmental doesn't really strike me as the place that someone even racially motivated would go to murder someone in cold blood. The kid probably thought that he was being threatened because of his race and tried to get the gun away from the local watch white guy.
If a civilian is patroling in a city with a gun I call that a militia. When did that change?
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On March 22 2012 09:45 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:43 Omnipresent wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. I get your point, but I don't recall multiple eye-witnesses to that event, or 911 calls that actually recorded it happening. There's no way for us to know for sure whether Zimmerman is guilty, and we should be conscious of that. It's ultimately up to a jury. That being said, the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is a crime on its own. Unless there's a mountain of exculpatory evidence or other mitigating factors that just haven't been made public (for some inexplicable reason), this guy should be behind bars awaiting trial. i am as surprised by you that he hasn't been arrested. however, they need evidence to support an arrest and they apparently dont have enough. i would think there is enough circumstantial evidence, but they apparently disagree.
There isn't enough evidence because the police failed to collect any.
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On March 22 2012 09:39 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:36 Monsen wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. I just skimmed the "unusual phobias" thread- so what point of "fearing for your life" is acceptable. You could use that argument for anything, right? Now from what we know he was twice the weight and heavily armed, running after a skinny kid. On the other hand, dark and rainy so who knows what he could/couldn't see. But couldn't the same thing be said for every night? If you can run after someone with a gun and shoot him- under what circumstances is "I was afraid for my life" actually not possible to be said? I can't think of any situation. Fear isn't rational- you could always be afraid for your life (see phobia thread). Seems retarded to me. its based on a reasonableness standard. phobias would not be sufficient as far as i know.
What does that even mean.
Now I'm not saying someone should use the "I thought he was a spider" argument to defend killing someone. I'm just saying fear for your life isn't rational (and thus can't be "reasonable") and as such seems a weird basis for self defense. (not that the guy was "defending" himself as is seems).
Made up situation: "I was brutally beaten up once, and the guy I bumped into looked like one of the guys that did that so I immediately had a flashback and was afraid for my life and shot him". The fear is completely believable- but still 100% wrong, no?
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Check out the following link if you want some more information about Trayvon from a guy I've found to be pretty knowledgeable.
+ Show Spoiler +
If you don't feel like watching the video, the guy in it basically plays one of the 911 calls. One of them is a woman who called 911, because she could hear someone screaming outside her house. You hear the screaming continue for a bit under a minute, then you hear a gunshot silence the screams.
I defy anyone to argue that it was self-defence now. The guy is a murderer, Trayvon was screaming for help for almost a minute according to the 911 call, which means the guy had him cornered, and was very likely pointing a weapon at him.
The guy who shot him needs to be arrested immediately. Every second he stays out of prison is a travesty against justice.
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On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
He is not a cop. That argument is pointless. And when a police officer chases someone, I am sure they have to identify themselves. I have no reason to stop for some random person chasing me with a guy.
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On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
Except they're THE POLICE and this guy is SOME RANDOM GUY. You're missing critical points here. And it is obvious that he chased Trayvon down and started an altercation. How he is not the aggressor in this case should be up to Zimmerman to prove, as it is quite apparent to everyone in this thread that he is. And if he is, it's all his fault. In fact, it's all his fault for chasing in the first place, even if he didn't start the altercation, but not to the degree of murder.
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On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
That's slightly different though. If a policeman approaches you and asks you to stop the logical response would be to stop if you've done nothing wrong or if you're intelligent enough not to escalate the situation if you have a reason to be wanted by the police. When you run you're resisting and evading an officer and that implies that the person has something to hide and they should be followed/chased in order to ascertain why they did not simply stop and talk to the officer(s). That a whole different situation when compared to someone randomly following you in their car then jumping out of it with a pistol and coming at you.
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On March 22 2012 09:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing. Police and civilians are and should be held to different standards. The man was told to not follow the teenager specifically because he has no authority to do anything about it. Also, a police officer wouldn't even have authority to shoot in that situation anyway.
once again, i think his self defense argument is shit based on what little we know. but we dont know what actually happened.
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Recent break ins, suspicious teenage walking around in the rain in the middle of the night, you don't know if he had a gun or not at the time, if he reaches into his waistband I'm unloading a full clip in him before he has a chance to pull out his own gun.
To many jumping to instant guilt off of what his girlfriend and family are saying while they are trying to sue for money.
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On March 22 2012 09:46 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. He could have had the gun out and the 17 year old might have struggled over the gun before it going off. An urban environmental doesn't really strike me as the place that someone even racially motivated would go to murder someone in cold blood. The kid probably thought that he was being threatened because of his race and tried to get the gun away from the local watch white guy. If a civilian is patroling in a city with a gun I call that a militia. When did that change?
So back to my armed robbery example. If you try to stop me and we a struggle for my gun ensues. I get a shot off and kill you. That is self defense? Absolutely not.
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On March 22 2012 09:43 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back. chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
I really don't get it (or more likely, you don't). It does automatically negate self defense. There's a fundamental differen't between police (on duty) and average citizens. You're comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same. The rules are not the same. There's no reason to compare them.
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I thought this was going to be a another article about another person getting "unjustly" shot by cops. After reading that story that person deserves to be arrested, it was not his duty to follow the boy.
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On March 22 2012 09:45 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:43 Omnipresent wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. I get your point, but I don't recall multiple eye-witnesses to that event, or 911 calls that actually recorded it happening. There's no way for us to know for sure whether Zimmerman is guilty, and we should be conscious of that. It's ultimately up to a jury. That being said, the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is a crime on its own. Unless there's a mountain of exculpatory evidence or other mitigating factors that just haven't been made public (for some inexplicable reason), this guy should be behind bars awaiting trial. i am as surprised by you that he hasn't been arrested. however, they need evidence to support an arrest and they apparently dont have enough. i would think there is enough circumstantial evidence, but they apparently disagree.
well obviously that's what the police department said, after conducting a half-assed investigation where they didnt even talk to eyewitnesses. the public called bullshit when the eyewitnesses went to the news and now the justice department is conducting their own investigation into the case. i'd expect him to be arrested soon
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On March 22 2012 09:47 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:39 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:36 Monsen wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. I just skimmed the "unusual phobias" thread- so what point of "fearing for your life" is acceptable. You could use that argument for anything, right? Now from what we know he was twice the weight and heavily armed, running after a skinny kid. On the other hand, dark and rainy so who knows what he could/couldn't see. But couldn't the same thing be said for every night? If you can run after someone with a gun and shoot him- under what circumstances is "I was afraid for my life" actually not possible to be said? I can't think of any situation. Fear isn't rational- you could always be afraid for your life (see phobia thread). Seems retarded to me. its based on a reasonableness standard. phobias would not be sufficient as far as i know. What does that even mean. Now I'm not saying someone should use the "I thought he was a spider" argument to defend killing someone. I'm just saying fear for your life isn't rational (and thus can't be "reasonable") and as such seems a weird basis for self defense. (not that the guy was "defending" himself as is seems). Made up situation: "I was brutally beaten up once, and the guy I bumped into looked like one of the guys that did that so I immediately had a flashback and was afraid for my life and shot him". The fear is completely believable- but still 100% wrong, no?
it means that you ask whether a reasonable person would fear for their life, etc. etc. its not based on whether the actual person feared for their life.
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On March 22 2012 09:47 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:43 Omnipresent wrote:On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. I get your point, but I don't recall multiple eye-witnesses to that event, or 911 calls that actually recorded it happening. There's no way for us to know for sure whether Zimmerman is guilty, and we should be conscious of that. It's ultimately up to a jury. That being said, the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is a crime on its own. Unless there's a mountain of exculpatory evidence or other mitigating factors that just haven't been made public (for some inexplicable reason), this guy should be behind bars awaiting trial. i am as surprised by you that he hasn't been arrested. however, they need evidence to support an arrest and they apparently dont have enough. i would think there is enough circumstantial evidence, but they apparently disagree. There isn't enough evidence because the police failed to collect any.
They also "corrected" at least one of witnesses they bothered to talk to.
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EPT
