|
This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
That his race was a factor is an assumption, made by racists and race hustlers who are more interested in pushing their agenda than in the facts of the case.
Race doesnt matter when you are on the ground being pummeled. It is only used a tool for those pushing their agendas after the fact.
|
On March 27 2012 08:21 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:43 Zaqwe wrote:Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His GunGeorge Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.
In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html Oh so the strange threatening man following him pulled out his gun during the confrontation, and the kid tried to take it from him, maybe to keep from getting shot. No shit sherlock.
Theres 2 options.
A. Zimmerman had his gun out prefight. Martin rushed him.
or
B. Martin attacked him, saw he had a gun, and tried to go for it.
Police officers are shot with their own gun isnt exactly new, so its not outlandish. Rushing a person who has a gun pointed at you? Not so much.
|
On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
Most security guards have to patrol office buildings and parking lots unarmed, because they're not qualified to deal with potentially dangerous situations.
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away.
He was asked what race the male was and he said black, but he was unsure. He later confirmed. I hope Im not accused of being racist if I say, "That person is black."
|
On March 27 2012 08:25 Freddybear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
Most security guards have to patrol office buildings and parking lots unarmed, because they're not qualified to deal with potentially dangerous situations.
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away. That his race was a factor is an assumption, made by racists and race hustlers who are more interested in pushing their agenda than in the facts of the case.
If a girl that looked like Natalie Portman or a even weird dude like Skrillex were walking down the street, I have serious doubts Zimmerman would have suspected them of anything.
To be clear, I don't consider Zimmerman "racist". We just live in a world were people see and judge people based on their appearance, including race. People can't help it.
|
On March 27 2012 08:26 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:21 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 Zaqwe wrote:Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His GunGeorge Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.
In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html Oh so the strange threatening man following him pulled out his gun during the confrontation, and the kid tried to take it from him, maybe to keep from getting shot. No shit sherlock. Its quite hilarious. 10 pages ago people spoke of duty to retreat. Now Martin, who struck Zimmerman and beat him while he lay on the ground, not only has no duty to retreat but is justified in trying obtain a firearm from the person he is assaulting in order to protect himself. How contrived are you going to get in order to defend this guy?
The point is if you pull out a gun during a fight, don't expect the other person to ignore it. That's it.
|
On March 27 2012 08:33 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
Most security guards have to patrol office buildings and parking lots unarmed, because they're not qualified to deal with potentially dangerous situations.
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away. I hope Im not accused of being racist if I say, "That person is black."
Of course not.
Following and pursuing a guy with little information other than he is Black. Not racist. But dumb.
|
Q: why do so many TL users have broken ankles?
A: from jumping off the latest band-wagon!
I think it's great how this thread is nearly 100 pages of people spouting nonsense. Everyone wants to be a white-knight about some issue that they know nothing about. Then it goes like this: 'what's that...?! More information? Evidence? Oh dang, I guess there was a reason for Zimmerman to approach him. But it's still racist!'
I am glad to see a few voices of reason in the crowd, but honestly, lets wait for the authorities to do their job. How often have they been forced into a decision to appease the public, only later to reveal they didn't have sufficient evidence and the bad guy walks. Due process is there for a reason + Show Spoiler + (Yes I know the police aren't perfect, but they're better than neighbourhood watch eh? ZING!)
|
On March 27 2012 08:38 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:33 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
Most security guards have to patrol office buildings and parking lots unarmed, because they're not qualified to deal with potentially dangerous situations.
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away. I hope Im not accused of being racist if I say, "That person is black." Of course not. Following and pursuing a guy with little information other than he is Black. Not racist. But dumb.
gated community, zimmerman has been doing neighborhood watch for a number of years (likely knows most of the people in the neighborhood), sees person he does not recognize, late at night, lots of burglaries in neighborhood, and.... yes, he was black.
edit: fuck me. i forgot he was wearing a hoodie. #hi.geraldo
|
On March 27 2012 08:40 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:38 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 08:33 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
Most security guards have to patrol office buildings and parking lots unarmed, because they're not qualified to deal with potentially dangerous situations.
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away. I hope Im not accused of being racist if I say, "That person is black." Of course not. Following and pursuing a guy with little information other than he is Black. Not racist. But dumb. gated community, zimmerman has been doing neighborhood watch for a number of years (likely knows most of the people in the neighborhood), sees person he does not recognize, late at night, lots of burglaries in neighborhood, and.... yes, he was black. edit: fuck me. i forgot he was wearing a hoodie. #hi.geraldo
7 pm is not that late. But sure, I can see you point of view.
|
On March 27 2012 08:46 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:40 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 08:38 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 08:33 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2012 07:34 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:23 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 07:22 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 07:16 Mallard86 wrote:
[quote]
Actually they only do that because of liability and licensing. Well isn't that smart? Zimmerman is learning that engaging people randomly for being suspicious *cough Black cough* and then having to shoot them has reprecussions beyond the law! Fancy that! This is a gross and incorrect oversimplification of all the issues. It's an over simplication, sure. But it's not wrong. You can drudge up all the past robberies in the neighborhood, Zimmerman's history, Traydon's history etc. But essentially Zimmerman confronted a stranger for being suspicious, with very little reason other than he was an unrecognizable black male. The guy is a dummy. i agree with some of the things you say. but one big thing is that there was an unknown individual in his neighborhood at night in a gated community, and he was the neighborhood watchmen. going up to the kid, identifying himself (im the resident neighborhood watchment) and asking who the kid was does not seem terribly wrong. not sure how it exactly went down though, and i also recognize that after calling the cops he shouldnt have gotten involved at all. Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid." His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death. It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away. I hope Im not accused of being racist if I say, "That person is black." Of course not. Following and pursuing a guy with little information other than he is Black. Not racist. But dumb. gated community, zimmerman has been doing neighborhood watch for a number of years (likely knows most of the people in the neighborhood), sees person he does not recognize, late at night, lots of burglaries in neighborhood, and.... yes, he was black. edit: fuck me. i forgot he was wearing a hoodie. #hi.geraldo 7 pm is not that late. But sure, I can see you point of view.
Alrighty then, so he didnt just assume it was a black person.
|
I saw Zimmerman's friend on CNN yesterday morning, around 6:30-ish am PST.
The guy's closing statement in the interview was something down the lines of, "Someone was going to die that day. Tragically, it had to be Trayvon Martin."
Why did someone have to die?
smh
|
On March 27 2012 08:34 Defacer wrote:
If a girl that looked like Natalie Portman or a even weird dude like Skrillex were walking down the street, I have serious doubts Zimmerman would have suspected them of anything.
To be clear, I don't consider Zimmerman "racist". We just live in a world were people see and judge people based on their appearance, including race. People can't help it.
I _believe_ you are wrong.
These people that have these kinds of neighbourhoods and enviroments with that perticular role that Zimmerman had are definitly more paranoid than other and I _believe_ he would stalk a "Skrillex-looking -guy" however.
I _believe_ however that there is a non-existant chance of it getting the same outcome.
Race killed the black guy, but I believe paranoia was the reason he was followed. Hence why he was unsure about the color of the skin of the guy he followed at first. He saw the hoodie and probably "up-to-no-good"-clothing young people tend to be comfotable in.
The sad question is if he will get charged or not.
It's all up to the witnesses but if it was a fight and then he shot he will get away.
I would probably have just ran and survived cause I'm a scared as fuck kinda guy, but Trayvon maybe did start the fight and thought he only defended himself. But the questions is then. What made him do that or how did George get him to do that?
RiP and may justice be served whatever that may be.
|
On March 27 2012 08:36 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:26 Mallard86 wrote:On March 27 2012 08:21 Fyrewolf wrote:On March 27 2012 07:43 Zaqwe wrote:Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His GunGeorge Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
The new information is the most complete version yet of what Zimmerman claims happened on the night of Feb. 26 when he shot and killed the teenager.
In addition, an eyewitness, 13-year-old Austin Brown, told police he saw a man fitting Zimmerman's description lying on the grass moaning and crying for help just seconds before he heard the gunshot that killed Martin.http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812--abc-news.html Oh so the strange threatening man following him pulled out his gun during the confrontation, and the kid tried to take it from him, maybe to keep from getting shot. No shit sherlock. Its quite hilarious. 10 pages ago people spoke of duty to retreat. Now Martin, who struck Zimmerman and beat him while he lay on the ground, not only has no duty to retreat but is justified in trying obtain a firearm from the person he is assaulting in order to protect himself. How contrived are you going to get in order to defend this guy? The point is if you pull out a gun during a fight, don't expect the other person to ignore it. That's it.
I want to quote this so people realize what a stupid situation this is. How/why the fight occurred and escalated will likely never be known w/ real accuracy. Did Trayvon really confront him and attack him? Was Zimmerman trying to get away before he was confronted? What ensued with the verbal confrontation? Was a weapon brandished before or during the fight? Did Zimmerman shoot him while struggling or after he had control?
All of that, while important to the case, isn't important to the underlying problem. Zimmerman created a stupid situation that should've never happened. While that's not a punishable crime, it should go to show what can come of stupid situations.
|
On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:
Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid."
His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death.
It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away.
I'm interested to read how race was a factor in being considered "suspicious" when Zimmerman, on the 911 tape, was unsure of Martin's race at first. But, carry on...
|
On March 27 2012 09:01 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:
Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid."
His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death.
It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away.
I'm interested to read how race was a factor in being considered "suspicious" when Zimmerman, on the 911 tape, was unsure of Martin's race at first. But, carry on...
Let's just say if, upon closer inspection, Trayvon turned out to be a 6-foot tall white lady, I think Zimmerman would have just kept on driving.
But you know. That's just me.
|
As a non american who has never been to the States, this is what I take from this situation.
1. Two guys who live in a gated (read: walls and armed guards) community fought and one shot the other guy.
2. One guy carried around a handgun, legally.
3. In the US you are allowed to shoot other people.
The debate in the US is about race, rather than what the hell is wrong with a country where 1, 2 and 3 goes on every day. You guys need to be invaded by Britain again, and learn some basic human ideals.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On March 27 2012 09:13 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 09:01 Kaitlin wrote:On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:
Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid."
His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death.
It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away.
I'm interested to read how race was a factor in being considered "suspicious" when Zimmerman, on the 911 tape, was unsure of Martin's race at first. But, carry on... Let's just say if, upon closer inspection, Trayvon turned out to be a 6-foot tall white lady, I think Zimmerman would have just kept on driving. But you know. That's just me.
thats not a great comparison. i generally dont look at women as criminals because statistically they are less likely to be criminals.
you need to compare a 6' white man (more appropriately a 6' hispanic man in this case) with a 6' black man. for me, i would hope that i was equally suspicious of all given the circumstances. however, where i grew up, blacks made up a disproportionately large amount of the criminals, so i can't say for sure whether i would look at them all equally.
|
On March 27 2012 09:13 Legio wrote:
As a non american who has never been to the States, this is what I take from this situation.
1. Two guys who live in a gated (read: walls and armed guards) community fought and one shot the other guy.
2. One guy carried around a handgun, legally.
3. In the US you are allowed to shoot other people.
The debate in the US is about race, rather than what the hell is wrong with a country where 1, 2 and 3 goes on every day. You guys need to be invaded by Britain again, and learn some basic human ideals.
The Swedish guy is trying to take shit up a notch.
|
On March 27 2012 09:13 Legio wrote:
As a non american who has never been to the States, this is what I take from this situation.
1. Two guys who live in a gated (read: walls and armed guards) community fought and one shot the other guy.
2. One guy carried around a handgun, legally.
3. In the US you are allowed to shoot other people.
The debate in the US is about race, rather than what the hell is wrong with a country where 1, 2 and 3 goes on every day. You guys need to be invaded by Britain again, and learn some basic human ideals.
you need to learn how to read.
|
On March 27 2012 09:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 09:13 Defacer wrote:On March 27 2012 09:01 Kaitlin wrote:On March 27 2012 08:15 Defacer wrote:
Well, this ambiguity is why the case has become so polarizing and personal for so many people. Sure, there is a lot of biased people, but I think there are a lot of more measured people asking themselves, "Why this kid."
His race was a factor in being considered "suspicious", resulting in a pointless confrontation and pointless death.
It's not the end of the world, it's just one of those stories that reminds people that this wishful thinking of a "post-racial" society is still a long-ways-away.
I'm interested to read how race was a factor in being considered "suspicious" when Zimmerman, on the 911 tape, was unsure of Martin's race at first. But, carry on... Let's just say if, upon closer inspection, Trayvon turned out to be a 6-foot tall white lady, I think Zimmerman would have just kept on driving. But you know. That's just me. you need to compare a 6' white man (more appropriately a 6' hispanic man in this case) with a 6' black man. for me, i would hope that i was equally suspicious of all given the circumstances. however, where i grew up, blacks made up a disproportionately large amount of the criminals, so i can't say for sure whether i would look at them all equally.
Zimmerman probably couldn't either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
369
251
5198
819
568
EPT
