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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to.
Exactly. There's a big difference between a uniformed or undercover police officer who is clearly displaying his credentials which give him the power to ask someone to stop and submit and someone in plain clothes jumping out of a car from nowhere carrying a loaded pistol and chasing you down in the night.
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On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun.
Right he never confirmed though he had a weapon he just said "something" (A bag of Skittles) and he isn't the police, hes a community watch member. They watch out for each other, why they are carrying guns is beyond my understanding.
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On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense.
You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense.
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On March 22 2012 09:30 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:09 albis wrote:
the fact everyone assumes hes guilty is pretty sad. when will the white guilt be over. none of us were there. He did shoot the kid.....The kid was unarmed and he initiated it after being told by the police to do nothing. There is no doubt about those facts. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 Frogsox wrote:On March 22 2012 09:24 DannyJ wrote:
"In the two months before the shooting, Zimmerman had called the police 46 times to report what he saw as suspicious activity."
That guy sounds like a true hero. He sounds like a serial pest who likes to jump at shadows. I'd like to see how many of his calls actually resulted in anything happening. WHOOSH sarcasm flew right over you. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't a cop and had no reason to be following the kid. He was in car and got out of the car to chase him. Anyhow as far as I know it is pretty tough to argue self defense under those circumstances
It might not have come out in the post the way I intended it to but I wasn't actually countering your comment. I should have deleted your hero comment and simply used the call statistic in my post as that was what I was actually responding too.
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On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense.
I just skimmed the "unusual phobias" thread- so what point of "fearing for your life" is acceptable. You could use that argument for anything, right? Now from what we know he was twice the weight and heavily armed, running after a skinny kid. On the other hand, dark and rainy so who knows what he could/couldn't see.
But couldn't the same thing be said for every night? If you can run after someone with a gun and shoot him- under what circumstances is "I was afraid for my life" actually not possible to be said? I can't think of any situation. Fear isn't rational- you could always be afraid for your life (see phobia thread).
Seems retarded to me.
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I can just picture being 17, having some older, larger fellow following me around in his truck. Then when I start moving quickly away, he jumps out of his truck with a pistol and runs at me. If the kid had a gun and shot the guy I would say it matches the Stand Your Ground law a lot better.
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On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so.
indeed there was obviously was some kind of intent/premeditation going on here. 140pound unarmed vs a 250pound man with a loaded handgun.....
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On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense.
It does. The police have a duty to pursue. Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't force Zimmerman to retreat if threatened. He has the option to stand and fight. He doen't have the option to pursue the "threat" and start an altercation. If you're the aggressor, you cannot claim self defense.
Martin didn't do anything to anyone, and Zimmerman had no reason to believe otherwise.
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On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense.
thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense.
look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily.
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what the fuck...
how do you get away with this shit.
You cant chase and kill somebody and call it self defense. it wasnt even the guy's property
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On March 22 2012 09:36 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. I just skimmed the "unusual phobias" thread- so what point of "fearing for your life" is acceptable. You could use that argument for anything, right? Now from what we know he was twice the weight and heavily armed, running after a skinny kid. On the other hand, dark and rainy so who knows what he could/couldn't see. But couldn't the same thing be said for every night? If you can run after someone with a gun and shoot him- under what circumstances is "I was afraid for my life" actually not possible to be said? I can't think of any situation. Fear isn't rational- you could always be afraid for your life (see phobia thread). Seems retarded to me.
its based on a reasonableness standard. phobias would not be sufficient as far as i know.
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On March 22 2012 09:37 dp wrote:
I can just picture being 17, having some older, larger fellow following me around in his truck. Then when I start moving quickly away, he jumps out of his truck with a pistol and runs at me. If the kid had a gun and shot the guy I would say it matches the Stand Your Ground law a lot better.
True enough. And if you follow that logic you'll end up with whoever shoots first wins. Maybe not a good idea to govern a society like this ><
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The sad part is that by following the law the justice system has to side with him. "Bringing him to justice" though a popular movement can't influence what a judge rules on a case.
Yeah hes guilty and everyone in the situation knows it but how does that change anything about what happens to the guy?
What all the attention should be doing is to changing the law and changing the program so that this doesn't happen again. Instead people are just going to riot, loot, pillage and the community will be nothing but the worse for it all.
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Trayvon was our hero. At the age 9, Trayvon pulled his father from a burning kitchen, saving his life. He loved sports and horseback riding. At only 17 he had a bright future ahead of him with dreams of attending college and becoming an aviation mechanic. Now that’s all gone.
I got that quote from the OP's article link. The guy saved his father's life from a burning kitchen and later gets shot by some random paranoid (most likely racist) man.
I swear I don't believe in karma!
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On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily.
That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back.
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To be fair it was at night, so Zimmerman could have thought the kid was holding some kind of weapon. Why was he chasing someone and initiating conflict if that person was holding an unidentifiable object that could or could not have been a weapon? I thought it was neighborhood watch, and not neighborhood vigilante force.
All I'm saying is all the dots are easily connected to disprove his self defense claim, so the case should be examined under a microscope.
Edit: Maybe I should have said "to question his self defense claim".
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On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily.
I get your point, but I don't recall multiple eye-witnesses to that event, or 911 calls that actually recorded it happening. There's no way for us to know for sure whether Zimmerman is guilty, and we should be conscious of that. It's ultimately up to a jury.
That being said, the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is a crime on its own. Unless there's a mountain of exculpatory evidence or other mitigating factors that just haven't been made public (for some inexplicable reason), this guy should be behind bars awaiting trial.
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On March 22 2012 09:40 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. You can't be given self defense when you're the person who initiated the conflict. That means I could commit armed robbery and kill anybody who tried to stop me in self defense. thats correct. but if the kid turned around and took a swing at him with a bat (or whatever the rent-a-cop's story is) then there could be a basis for self defense. look, im not saying this guy has a good self-defense argument. i am just saying people are jumping to conclusions based on limited evidence. that scares the shit out of me given people's tendencies to jump on bandwagons. it fucked up the Duke lacrosse player's lives unnecessarily. That isn't self defense though. If you chase somebody down with a loaded handgun and he tries to defend himself with a bat and you shoot him to kill then you're still guilty of murder. If I attack you, I don't become the defender if you attack me back.
chasing alone doesnt make you an aggressor in my book whether you have a handgun or not. otherwise police would have a hell of a time arguing self defense during a police chase. it sure doesnt help for a self defense argument, but it certainly doesnt automatically negate the defense like some people are arguing.
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But on the much larger scale i think the problem lies with the Florida law "Stand you ground" if Zimmerman gets even brought to trial or not its honestly mind boggling to think that this sort of tragedy happened and Zimmerman wasn't even brought in yet. The idea behind law had good intentions but it just ends up getting abused (as do most laws)
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i just watched them youtube vids. the kid is screaming no, and help, or something, and then still get shot.
thats just murder.
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EPT
