On March 23 2012 06:48 Playguuu wrote: He say's "fucking coons" during the first call. Not only is this guy racist he claims self defense when he has a gun and the other guy doesn't. He should be locked up no question.
You can still claim to have acted in self defense even if you have a gun, I dont know why you and some other people seem to think that you cant.
Saying racist things isnt a crime.
Not after you follow the guy, the law doesn't apply (or shouldn't according to the lawmaker). I didn't say saying racist things was a crime. I just said he had a gun and the other guy didn't. He went after him when he had no business doing so, especially after the dispatcher told him not to. Not a crime, but everything isn't black and white.
Neighborhood watch are allowed to follow people. He wasnt breaking the law by firing. Assuming his girlfriend isnt lying, Zimmerman asked "what are you doing here?"
Taken at face value, your post makes it seem that all you need to do to be locked up is:
Say something racist. Claim self defense while having a gun and the other guy doesnt.
Taken at face value I'd assume you didn't know how to read.
On March 23 2012 06:32 Anytus wrote: Serious question: there are a good number of posters in this thread (most of them have European location labels) who are surprised that Zimmerman was not immediately arrested. Is that how it works in Europe? As soon as the police suspect that you have committed a crime, you get arrested and held?
As, I mentioned earlier, the procedure is almost completely different in the US. Unless it is clear at the time of the incident what happened, police will not arrest anyone until they have sufficient evidence to put them on trial. In this case, the police (apparently), felt like they didn't have enough evidence to disprove Zimmerman's self-defense claim and so even though he shot a kid, they let him go (innocent until proven guilty, no unreasonable bond or bail, habeus corpus, and all that business). Of course they questioned him, and others, and collected evidence, but still felt they could not make an arrest at that time.
For anyone asserting that Zimmerman automatically gives up his right to self-defense when he pursues Martin, please read the law and the jury instruction for yourself. The statement is just false. It seems reasonable and we might agree that the law needs to be changed, but the way it is written now, Zimmerman does not automatically give up his self-defense claim because he pursued.
In Sweden you can get arrested for questioning by police without any order from a judge. There are certain limitations, like you have to be questioned by police or prosecutor as soon as possible and then an immediate decision must be taken wheter or not you should be detained as a suspect (they need enough evidence of a crime) or be released immediatly afterwards if not. Even the swedish police suspected him of a crime in this kind of scenario he would still probably be released unless they found it likely he would intefere with the investigation in some way. My guess is that the people that are calling for him to get arrested don't understand it's basically the same concept, he gets questioned by the police and then sent home while waiting for the investigation's conclusion. I don't think there are many western countries where he would get arrested and held for any longer period of time if there were no clear evidence of a crime. I'm not even sure he would have gotten arrested instead of being called for an interview, it depends on the situation I guess (if the account two posts below this is correct he most likely wouldn't have).
On March 23 2012 07:14 GreenHorizons wrote: It should be noted that people who opposed this law said events precisely like this would result and the supporters denied it...
The question though is exactly what kind of event is this! There are 2 very different stories:
(1) Vigilante Hispanic neighborhood watch man racially profiles unarmed minor and shoots him in cold blood after starting a fight with him. He then (ridiculously) claims protection under the states SYG law. Police are reluctant and cannot prosecute him. These are the kinds of events that opponents said would happen.
(2) Misguided Hispanic neighborhood watch man observes and follows unarmed minor. After he loses sight of the minor he heads back to his car, but he is ambushed by that same person and beaten. During the fight, which was started by Martin, Zimmerman is pinned to the ground but manages to use (or pull out, unclear if it was out already or not) his gun and shoot the attacker. These are the kind of events that supporters designed the law for.
On March 23 2012 07:11 GreenHorizons wrote: I think much of the posts are getting pretty ridiculous. We all know that people are innocent until proven guilty. In this case the outrage is the way many of the events were handled by Zimmerman and the police.
The fact that the only person who says that Zimmerman was defending himself is Zimmerman, despite the fact that by his own admission and other audio it is absolutely clear he was the aggressor on Trayvon by pursuing him instead of retreating just to confront someone he perceived as a threat despite being told not to by authorities.
By the logic most are using the only thing that would prevent Trayvon from shooting Zimmerman is that he was too young to own a firearm. Otherwise a large stranger chased Trayvon down and confronted him with a gun so Trayvon would have been within his rights to have shot Zimmerman? Or would the police not just assumed that he was defending himself like they did Zimmerman despite witness reports to the contrary?
So somehow because based off only their own judgment they consider someone a threat they can execute someone and they only need to claim self defense? doesn't matter if they had to chase the threat down because it was trying to get away...
Zimmerman's account of self-defense is corroborated by a witness who saw Trayvon attacking Zimmerman while Zimmerman was pinned on the ground screaming for help.
Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin
Literally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read "George Zimmerman, a white man," or "shoot by a white man." Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is "mostly white." This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white.
All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.
The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.
The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.
daPhREak - I get where you are coming from here. There is definitely a lot more information that needs to come out before a person can make a completely enlightened opinion. Jumping the gun happens, so no reason to get too annoyed at people that make up their minds beforehand.
I personally feel like the Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by getting out of his car, and escalated it by bringing his weapon with him. That feels to me like it should disqualify him from the SYG, but a lot of circumstances could change that of course.
Getting unbiased information about this case is difficult though. A few things people need to keep in mind though:
Martin was 6'3. From his pictures I had envisioned him as someone around the size of my younger brother, but he was not a tiny person, just lanky it seems. His ability to defend himself shouldn't be overlooked. Having weight on someone doesn't instantly make the fight over, so keep that in mind.
Also, keep in mind that no one has said if he had drawn his weapon before he used it or not. Seems many people are jumping to the conclusion that he ran after the kid with his gun drawn. There is no evidence of this that I have heard.
Another problem I have is something someone else brought up as well. How did Zimmerman catch him? Was he cornered? I can't see an overweight 28 year old catching up with a 17 year old football player that is built like many of the track runners I know. Has anyone seen where the final confrontation took place? It would seem it would have to have been near the street, since Zimmerman says that he stepped out of his car to check the street name he was on and was attacked from behind then. (although this sounds interesting to me as well, since there would be no reason in my mind why he would have to leave his car for that, nor does it sound normal for someone that does regular neighborhood watch in a gated community to not know where he is)
When it comes to Zimmerman himself, I think people are jumping the gun on the racism thing. I don't hear the coon comment, and describing a black male as a black male is definitely not racist. It sounds more like he was just an overzealous neighborhood watch guy. He put himself in a bad situation most likely just trying to do the right thing. Bad things can happen from good intentions too. Also, the operator didn't demand, nor actively seek to stop Zimmerman from pursuing Martin. He simply said 'you don't need to do that'. That is not a stand down, direct command.
The eyewitness accounts vary, but I haven't heard any that state they saw the start of the confrontation, only the conclusion. If someone had seen what initiated the fight, we would have a better understanding as well but it doesn't seem that is going to happen.
your thoughts seem reasonable enough to me. only thing to add is there is apparently at least one witness who says he/she saw the kid on top of zimmerman punching him and zimmerman was screaming for help. but, like people have said before, eyewitness accounts (as well as most witness testimony in general) can change. people say "i saw a gun" when they are talking to police, which turns into "i saw him reach for something in his pocket" when they are on the stand.
And this is why the police should have taken Zimmerman in, because if he was being punched repeatedly there would be some pretty clear evidence of that. The fact that this man just killed another person and wasn't even brought in to a police station is seriously fucked up. I don't believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, and honestly he put himself in a situation where Martin could have been acting in self defense himself, even if he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman at the time.
The issues of race are brought up because I cannot conceive of a situation where a 28 year old black man shoots a 17 year old white (or hispanic) under similar circumstances, and gets away. Maybe it wasn't a hate crime, but refusing to even ask the question is negligent.
i may have inadvertently given the impression that i dont think there was sufficient probable cause to arrest him. i do think that he should have been arrested. the factual circumstances and the contradiction between his original story and the 911 tapes seems enough for me to arrest him. however, the police didn't believe so, and the Florida self-defense law (and its immunity clauses) are just weird. whether that was ineptitude or reasonable, i dont know, because i dont have the facts in front of me that they have. i only have youtube videos and newspaper articles, which contradict each other, and are sometimes heavily biased both ways.
On March 23 2012 07:11 GreenHorizons wrote: I think much of the posts are getting pretty ridiculous. We all know that people are innocent until proven guilty. In this case the outrage is the way many of the events were handled by Zimmerman and the police.
The fact that the only person who says that Zimmerman was defending himself is Zimmerman, despite the fact that by his own admission and other audio it is absolutely clear he was the aggressor on Trayvon by pursuing him instead of retreating just to confront someone he perceived as a threat despite being told not to by authorities.
By the logic most are using the only thing that would prevent Trayvon from shooting Zimmerman is that he was too young to own a firearm. Otherwise a large stranger chased Trayvon down and confronted him with a gun so Trayvon would have been within his rights to have shot Zimmerman? Or would the police not just assumed that he was defending himself like they did Zimmerman despite witness reports to the contrary?
So somehow because based off only their own judgment they consider someone a threat they can execute someone and they only need to claim self defense? doesn't matter if they had to chase the threat down because it was trying to get away...
Zimmerman's account of self-defense is corroborated by a witness who saw Trayvon attacking Zimmerman while Zimmerman was pinned on the ground screaming for help.
Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin
Literally thousands of articles contain at least one false statement in the first couple of lines. They usually read "George Zimmerman, a white man," or "shoot by a white man." Zimmerman is described by family as a multiracial Hispanic. His appearance is clearly that of a Latino/Mestizo individual. However, the media wants him to be white because that better fits the political narrative they are trying to artificially create. Many news articles have also claimed the neighborhood is "mostly white." This is also a lie. The neighborhood is only 49% white. It is over half non-white.
All the way back on February 27th, the local Orlando Fox station interviewed the witness who dialed 911. Almost none of the thousands of articles since have mentioned any of the details described by the witness. Some, however, have attributed false statements to this witness. On March 16th, the Sanford police department released new details to the Orlando Sentinel. Once again, these details have been ignored or changed by the media.
The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.
The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.
Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.
Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.
The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.
Don't think that corroborates. Just as easily could have been started by Zimmerman and he lost. (Not saying this is what happened, just saying that him losing the fight does not in anyway reinforce his story)
On March 23 2012 07:23 dAPhREAk wrote: i may have inadvertently given the impression that i dont think there was sufficient probable cause to arrest him. i do think that he should have been arrested. the factual circumstances and the contradiction between his original story and the 911 tapes seems enough for me to arrest him. however, the police didn't believe so, and the Florida self-defense law (and its immunity clauses) are just weird. whether that was ineptitude or reasonable, i dont know, because i dont have the facts in front of me that they have. i only have youtube videos and newspaper articles, which contradict each other, and are sometimes heavily biased both ways.
There are some pretty weird immunity laws out there. I read one of Texas' laws yesterday that if a person is killed and it seems like a family member may have done it, under certain circumstances (ie its not entirely clear), that person cannot legally be arrested until 7 days after the death.
Seems kinda like a CYOA by the local police and I don't blame them. On reading the law, I can't say that I would've felt like I could arrest him. Doing so in bad faith could lead to lawsuits and potential criminal charges (considering it violates the law as stated). They seem more than happy to let the feds arrest him.
daPhREak - I get where you are coming from here. There is definitely a lot more information that needs to come out before a person can make a completely enlightened opinion. Jumping the gun happens, so no reason to get too annoyed at people that make up their minds beforehand.
I personally feel like the Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by getting out of his car, and escalated it by bringing his weapon with him. That feels to me like it should disqualify him from the SYG, but a lot of circumstances could change that of course.
Getting unbiased information about this case is difficult though. A few things people need to keep in mind though:
Martin was 6'3. From his pictures I had envisioned him as someone around the size of my younger brother, but he was not a tiny person, just lanky it seems. His ability to defend himself shouldn't be overlooked. Having weight on someone doesn't instantly make the fight over, so keep that in mind.
Also, keep in mind that no one has said if he had drawn his weapon before he used it or not. Seems many people are jumping to the conclusion that he ran after the kid with his gun drawn. There is no evidence of this that I have heard.
Another problem I have is something someone else brought up as well. How did Zimmerman catch him? Was he cornered? I can't see an overweight 28 year old catching up with a 17 year old football player that is built like many of the track runners I know. Has anyone seen where the final confrontation took place? It would seem it would have to have been near the street, since Zimmerman says that he stepped out of his car to check the street name he was on and was attacked from behind then. (although this sounds interesting to me as well, since there would be no reason in my mind why he would have to leave his car for that, nor does it sound normal for someone that does regular neighborhood watch in a gated community to not know where he is)
When it comes to Zimmerman himself, I think people are jumping the gun on the racism thing. I don't hear the coon comment, and describing a black male as a black male is definitely not racist. It sounds more like he was just an overzealous neighborhood watch guy. He put himself in a bad situation most likely just trying to do the right thing. Bad things can happen from good intentions too. Also, the operator didn't demand, nor actively seek to stop Zimmerman from pursuing Martin. He simply said 'you don't need to do that'. That is not a stand down, direct command.
The eyewitness accounts vary, but I haven't heard any that state they saw the start of the confrontation, only the conclusion. If someone had seen what initiated the fight, we would have a better understanding as well but it doesn't seem that is going to happen.
your thoughts seem reasonable enough to me. only thing to add is there is apparently at least one witness who says he/she saw the kid on top of zimmerman punching him and zimmerman was screaming for help. but, like people have said before, eyewitness accounts (as well as most witness testimony in general) can change. people say "i saw a gun" when they are talking to police, which turns into "i saw him reach for something in his pocket" when they are on the stand.
And this is why the police should have taken Zimmerman in, because if he was being punched repeatedly there would be some pretty clear evidence of that. The fact that this man just killed another person and wasn't even brought in to a police station is seriously fucked up. I don't believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, and honestly he put himself in a situation where Martin could have been acting in self defense himself, even if he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman at the time.
The issues of race are brought up because I cannot conceive of a situation where a 28 year old black man shoots a 17 year old white (or hispanic) under similar circumstances, and gets away. Maybe it wasn't a hate crime, but refusing to even ask the question is negligent.
Why should they have arrested him? Just to waste taxpayer money?
The evidence was consistent with his claims of self-defense, and Zimmerman is not a flight risk so there's no reason to detain him until the investigation turns up evidence he committed a crime.
daPhREak - I get where you are coming from here. There is definitely a lot more information that needs to come out before a person can make a completely enlightened opinion. Jumping the gun happens, so no reason to get too annoyed at people that make up their minds beforehand.
I personally feel like the Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by getting out of his car, and escalated it by bringing his weapon with him. That feels to me like it should disqualify him from the SYG, but a lot of circumstances could change that of course.
Getting unbiased information about this case is difficult though. A few things people need to keep in mind though:
Martin was 6'3. From his pictures I had envisioned him as someone around the size of my younger brother, but he was not a tiny person, just lanky it seems. His ability to defend himself shouldn't be overlooked. Having weight on someone doesn't instantly make the fight over, so keep that in mind.
Also, keep in mind that no one has said if he had drawn his weapon before he used it or not. Seems many people are jumping to the conclusion that he ran after the kid with his gun drawn. There is no evidence of this that I have heard.
Another problem I have is something someone else brought up as well. How did Zimmerman catch him? Was he cornered? I can't see an overweight 28 year old catching up with a 17 year old football player that is built like many of the track runners I know. Has anyone seen where the final confrontation took place? It would seem it would have to have been near the street, since Zimmerman says that he stepped out of his car to check the street name he was on and was attacked from behind then. (although this sounds interesting to me as well, since there would be no reason in my mind why he would have to leave his car for that, nor does it sound normal for someone that does regular neighborhood watch in a gated community to not know where he is)
When it comes to Zimmerman himself, I think people are jumping the gun on the racism thing. I don't hear the coon comment, and describing a black male as a black male is definitely not racist. It sounds more like he was just an overzealous neighborhood watch guy. He put himself in a bad situation most likely just trying to do the right thing. Bad things can happen from good intentions too. Also, the operator didn't demand, nor actively seek to stop Zimmerman from pursuing Martin. He simply said 'you don't need to do that'. That is not a stand down, direct command.
The eyewitness accounts vary, but I haven't heard any that state they saw the start of the confrontation, only the conclusion. If someone had seen what initiated the fight, we would have a better understanding as well but it doesn't seem that is going to happen.
your thoughts seem reasonable enough to me. only thing to add is there is apparently at least one witness who says he/she saw the kid on top of zimmerman punching him and zimmerman was screaming for help. but, like people have said before, eyewitness accounts (as well as most witness testimony in general) can change. people say "i saw a gun" when they are talking to police, which turns into "i saw him reach for something in his pocket" when they are on the stand.
And this is why the police should have taken Zimmerman in, because if he was being punched repeatedly there would be some pretty clear evidence of that. The fact that this man just killed another person and wasn't even brought in to a police station is seriously fucked up. I don't believe Zimmerman acted in self defense, and honestly he put himself in a situation where Martin could have been acting in self defense himself, even if he was beating the shit out of Zimmerman at the time.
The issues of race are brought up because I cannot conceive of a situation where a 28 year old black man shoots a 17 year old white (or hispanic) under similar circumstances, and gets away. Maybe it wasn't a hate crime, but refusing to even ask the question is negligent.
Why should they have arrested him? Just to waste taxpayer money?
The evidence was consistent with his claims of self-defense, and Zimmerman is not a flight risk so there's no reason to detain him until the investigation turns up evidence he committed a crime.
Trust me, the police waste taxpayer money on things a lot more ridiculous than arresting a man that just admitted to shooting another person to death.
Maybe he shouldn't have been arrested, but from what I have seen there wasn't a whole lot of evidence collection. I am trying to find a police report or something that says Zimmerman had obviously been attacked, but I haven't found anything aside from that report that opens up basically saying "people get killed by gangs all the time, why don't more people care about them instead of this shit?" Paraphrasing, of course.
On March 23 2012 07:38 plogamer wrote: Self-defense isn't going to fly if you provoke it in the first place. The operator warned him not to follow the kid. It is recorded.
EPT
