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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 23 2012 05:53 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 These people are professional fighters... How does that have anything to do with this? There might be some parallels, but in the end, the comparison is highly flawed.
On March 23 2012 05:53 Red112 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 Those are men who know how to fight. For two people who don't have any fighting experience, a guy being twice your weight is a big difference.
If those trained fighters can't manage to use their weight to any advantage what reason is there to believe some unathletic person with no training could?
Looking at their attributes seems to suggest that Trayvon had the physical advantage. He was a fit football player and Zimmerman is overweight, shorter, and not athletic. This estimation of their relative physical advantages seems to be confirmed by the fact that it was Zimmerman who ended up on his back being beaten during their altercation.
I'm just not seeing where people are getting the idea that Zimmerman could have overpowered Trayvon at all, much less with the ease some are suggesting. It doesn't seem to be backed up by any facts or logic.
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This is so crazy, happened a few miles from my house and Trayvon went to school with me  . Everyone here in Sanford is pretty freaked out, protests everywhere and shit.
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This story pisses me off. Lock this guy the fuck up.
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On March 23 2012 06:07 Dactyl wrote:This is so crazy, happened a few miles from my house and Trayvon went to school with me . Everyone here in Sanford is pretty freaked out, protests everywhere and shit.
Trayvon went to school in Miami, which is nowhere near where he was shot. Seems like you're fibbing for attention or something.
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On March 23 2012 06:04 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:53 lwwkicker wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 These people are professional fighters... How does that have anything to do with this? There might be some parallels, but in the end, the comparison is highly flawed. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:53 Red112 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 Those are men who know how to fight. For two people who don't have any fighting experience, a guy being twice your weight is a big difference. If those trained fighters can't manage to use their weight to any advantage what reason is there to believe some unathletic person with no training could? Looking at their attributes seems to suggest that Trayvon had the physical advantage. He was a fit football player and Zimmerman is overweight, shorter, and not athletic. This estimation of their relative physical advantages seems to be confirmed by the fact that it was Zimmerman who ended up on his back being beaten during their altercation. I'm just not seeing where people are getting the idea that Zimmerman could have overpowered Trayvon at all, much less with the ease some are suggesting. It doesn't seem to be backed up by any facts or logic.
First and foremost - you are listing 200lb fighters against 300-400lb fighters. In the UFC, heavyweights are generally 200-260lb. 300lb+ is just overweight.
Second, Don Frye, even though he's not well known now, was one beast of a man back then.
Third, at 200lb and well trained, these heavyweight fighters throw punches that knock out easily in one blow. They HURT. There is a reason why there rarely is open class tournaments in UFC/MMA. The heavyweights would almost always be guaranteed to win, based on sheer strength and endurance when compared to welter and lightweights.
In general the lighter person, especially if by a huge margin (60-70lbs in this case?), is at a disadvantage. I can't really comment on Trayvon Martin against George Zimmerman, but it's rarely the case of a lighter person easily taking on a heavier person.
Personal comment: I used to learn jujitsu. I once took on an amateur weighting 240lb while I was 150lb. It was damn near impossible to get him off me or to keep him down.
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If two people are untrained, weight and size make all the difference in the world.
What's with the inane UFC references? Was Martin a professional fighter?
If the kid played football and was a strong, aggressive dude for his age there is a chance he might have tackled the fat guy to the ground and could have punched him repeatedly from there, but to do that he had to have been seriously threatened.
In all other scenarios beating a massively larger person when you don't know how to fight is next to impossible.
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On March 23 2012 06:04 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:53 lwwkicker wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 These people are professional fighters... How does that have anything to do with this? There might be some parallels, but in the end, the comparison is highly flawed. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:53 Red112 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 Those are men who know how to fight. For two people who don't have any fighting experience, a guy being twice your weight is a big difference. If those trained fighters can't manage to use their weight to any advantage what reason is there to believe some unathletic person with no training could? Looking at their attributes seems to suggest that Trayvon had the physical advantage. He was a fit football player and Zimmerman is overweight, shorter, and not athletic. This estimation of their relative physical advantages seems to be confirmed by the fact that it was Zimmerman who ended up on his back being beaten during their altercation. I'm just not seeing where people are getting the idea that Zimmerman could have overpowered Trayvon at all, much less with the ease some are suggesting. It doesn't seem to be backed up by any facts or logic.
Speaking of facts. How do you know Zimmerman is "overweight" or not athletic? I saw some pictures of him, and no, he is definitely not slim or ripped, but I certainly don't see him huffing to walk up the stairs either. Also, those 'trained fighters' have rules by which to fight. A street fight has no such rules. If UFC had zero rules, I am pretty damn sure these huge beasts could find a way to win against the little guy. But, I have no facts to back that claim up and neither do you. And if you want to talk about facts (or more UFC references) how many times do you see the superior fighter on his back in full/half guard against his opponent? Lots. Like, all the time. Point is, the UFC comparison isn't good, sorry.
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On March 23 2012 05:42 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:39 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:32 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. zimmerman certainly put himself in a stupid position. however, he felt it was his job (stupidly or not) to patrol the neighborhood, he didn't know this kid, he thought the kid was suspicious and he followed him. probably not the brightest thing to do. this doesnt mean he didnt act in self defense. also, if FL doesn't believe the "being beat up story," how do they explain the blood and grass stains? i guess he could have slipped and fell (on both his front and back). so when i move to florida, im gonna carry a gun with me and follow whoever i please and then if i get into a confrontation, ill just shoot the guy and claim self defense. that's essentially what everyone who is coming to this idiot's defense is condoning. nobody is coming to his defense. everyone who has "defended" him is only pointing out that all the facts aren't known and people shouldn't rush to judgment. the fact that people take it to such extremes ("im going to buy a gun and go to florida") just seems foolish to me. you dont get to do whatever you want to do. you have to show reasonableness. self defense is not a "i said i was justified, thus i win" defense. you have to prove it to a jury and they have to agree with you. other people have claimed self defense under this Florida law and fucking lost and went to prison. seems to me that once the police got the "this was self defense" argument from this guy and he got off quite easily. not arrested or anything damn those constitutional protections that require you to get probable cause before you arrest someone! maybe they screwed up the investigation, i dont know. but the grand jury will determine whether he should be indicted.
They know Zimmerman pursued an unarmed kid half his size and killed him. In what world does that not constitute probable cause?
The officers involved are fucking inept.
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On March 23 2012 05:49 Fyrewolf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +While some people are claiming that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help, there are some witnesses who claim it was Martin's voice. And the father went on Anderson Cooper 360 where he says he is positive it is his son on the tapes. Interview with the Father on AC360: 3:45 "I'm sure that that's his voice. I'm positive that's his voice" Interviews with witnesses who claim the crying for help was from a child and stopped immediately after the gunshot, and came outside to see Zimmerman straddled on top of the deceased Martin. Weshtv interview: AC 360 interview: The reporter in the wesh interview reported "[The Martin family attorney says] if the Sanford police department continues to say that one of the witness's statements were inconsistent, he will assist in filing a complaint against the department involving witness tampering, obstruction of justices, and witness intimidation" Inconsistencies have abounded everywhere in the various reports of this emotionally charged story, but such an accusatory complaint against the department is no small charge. Unclear where this might go still, but it's interesting nonetheless.
Interestingly this witness never saw who was shouting for help but draws some pretty strong conclusions based on absolutely nothing.
She says she heard a "child" "crying", Trayvon was an almost fully grown young man. It is unlikely someone so far into puberty sounded like a child. She says she knows for certain it was Trayvon "crying" because the shouts for help stopped after the shooting and "if it was Zimmermann that was crying, Zimmermann would have continued crying after the shot went off". This is a bizarre conclusion. If Zimmermann was the one shouting for help why would he continue shouting for help after he used his pistol? On the flip side, if Trayvon was "crying" why wouldn't he continue crying until he lost conciousness?
This "witness" is making far too specific claims based on nothing. She is basically writing her own fictional account of what happened, loosely based around media accounts and what she heard but did not see.
Also interesting that Trayvon's father is now claiming it is his son's voice after initially telling police it was not.
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"And he's a black male …"
Hate crime. Lock him up for life.
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On March 23 2012 06:12 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:07 Dactyl wrote:This is so crazy, happened a few miles from my house and Trayvon went to school with me . Everyone here in Sanford is pretty freaked out, protests everywhere and shit. Trayvon went to school in Miami, which is nowhere near where he was shot. Seems like you're fibbing for attention or something.
Not middle school.
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On March 23 2012 06:13 Kickboxer wrote:
If the kid played football and was a strong, aggressive dude for his age there is a chance he might have tackled the fat guy to the ground and could have punched him repeatedly from there, but to do that he had to have been seriously threatened.
Where is the logic in that?
To shoot someone Zimmerman had to have been seriously in danger for his life. Your shoddy rationalization works both ways.
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On March 23 2012 06:18 TidusX.Yuna wrote:
"And he's a black male …"
Hate crime. Lock him up for life.
That was in response to the dispatcher asking what the race of the suspect was for identification reasons. Not a random outburst of "Oh it's a black guy I'm gonna kill him!"
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On March 23 2012 06:18 TidusX.Yuna wrote:
"And he's a black male …"
Hate crime. Lock him up for life.
Describing someone is not a hate crime or a crime.
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On March 23 2012 06:17 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:39 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:32 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. zimmerman certainly put himself in a stupid position. however, he felt it was his job (stupidly or not) to patrol the neighborhood, he didn't know this kid, he thought the kid was suspicious and he followed him. probably not the brightest thing to do. this doesnt mean he didnt act in self defense. also, if FL doesn't believe the "being beat up story," how do they explain the blood and grass stains? i guess he could have slipped and fell (on both his front and back). so when i move to florida, im gonna carry a gun with me and follow whoever i please and then if i get into a confrontation, ill just shoot the guy and claim self defense. that's essentially what everyone who is coming to this idiot's defense is condoning. nobody is coming to his defense. everyone who has "defended" him is only pointing out that all the facts aren't known and people shouldn't rush to judgment. the fact that people take it to such extremes ("im going to buy a gun and go to florida") just seems foolish to me. you dont get to do whatever you want to do. you have to show reasonableness. self defense is not a "i said i was justified, thus i win" defense. you have to prove it to a jury and they have to agree with you. other people have claimed self defense under this Florida law and fucking lost and went to prison. seems to me that once the police got the "this was self defense" argument from this guy and he got off quite easily. not arrested or anything damn those constitutional protections that require you to get probable cause before you arrest someone! maybe they screwed up the investigation, i dont know. but the grand jury will determine whether he should be indicted. They know Zimmerman pursued an unarmed kid half his size and killed him. In what world does that not constitute probable cause? The officers involved are fucking inept.
in this world.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
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"The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.
Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to
meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon."
Yeah man, seems plausible. That the police had no mandate to take him in (Because the self defense law is fucked up) was already established as far as I know?
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On March 23 2012 06:12 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:04 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:53 lwwkicker wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 These people are professional fighters... How does that have anything to do with this? There might be some parallels, but in the end, the comparison is highly flawed. On March 23 2012 05:53 Red112 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:50 Zaqwe wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. besides how it's possible a <160 pound 17 year old could take down a sober 250 pound man is beyond me. either zimmerman was drunk, and thus at fault and committing a crime, or it never happened. I don't understand why people keep claiming that being fat and out of shape is somehow advantageous if you get into a physical altercation. In UFC 8 David vs. Goliath, for example, the heavy fighters were defeated in the first round by men half their weight. Don Frye (210 lbs) > Thomas Ramirez (410 lbs) Jerry Bohlander (199 lbs) > Scott Ferrozzo (323 lbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_8 Those are men who know how to fight. For two people who don't have any fighting experience, a guy being twice your weight is a big difference. If those trained fighters can't manage to use their weight to any advantage what reason is there to believe some unathletic person with no training could? Looking at their attributes seems to suggest that Trayvon had the physical advantage. He was a fit football player and Zimmerman is overweight, shorter, and not athletic. This estimation of their relative physical advantages seems to be confirmed by the fact that it was Zimmerman who ended up on his back being beaten during their altercation. I'm just not seeing where people are getting the idea that Zimmerman could have overpowered Trayvon at all, much less with the ease some are suggesting. It doesn't seem to be backed up by any facts or logic. First and foremost - you are listing 200lb fighters against 300-400lb fighters. In the UFC, heavyweights are generally 200-260lb. 300lb+ is just overweight. Second, Don Frye, even though he's not well known now, was one beast of a man back then. Third, at 200lb and well trained, these heavyweight fighters throw punches that knock out easily in one blow. They HURT. There is a reason why there rarely is open class tournaments in UFC/MMA. The heavyweights would almost always be guaranteed to win, based on sheer strength and endurance when compared to welter and lightweights. In general the lighter person, especially if by a huge margin (60-70lbs in this case?), is at a disadvantage. I can't really comment on Trayvon Martin against George Zimmerman, but it's rarely the case of a lighter person easily taking on a heavier person. Personal comment: I used to learn jujitsu. I once took on an amateur weighting 240lb while I was 150lb. It was damn near impossible to get him off me or to keep him down.
I understand how weight classes work and why the exist. They are for separating people who are athletic, trained, and their weight is usually muscle mass, not lard.
I was pointing out that having a bunch of lard on your body doesn't make you some superhuman who could easily overpower a 6'3" football player who had you on your back and was beating you in the face.
The fact that Zimmerman, not Trayvon, ended up on his back with Trayvon on top of him seems to suggest that Zimmermann was not some unstoppable juggernaut who could handle the situation with physical prowess alone.
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On March 23 2012 06:26 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:17 Mindcrime wrote:On March 23 2012 05:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:39 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:37 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:32 zev318 wrote:On March 23 2012 05:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 23 2012 05:22 PrinceXizor wrote:
well, he could have not got out of his car. not followed martin when told not to by 911. Alot of things. also pretty much no one in FL believes the zimmerman was being beat up story. though an autopsy results could clearly prove this. since the bullet would have has to enter from below the heart in order to kill him. if he was shot in ANY other manner, then the men were standing or zimmerman was on top. note that everything happened within 1 minute. since the 4 minute phonecall w/ his girlfriend cut out 1 minute before the police arrived and no gunshot was on that call. Had zimmerman remained in his car for 1 more minute, martin would be alive. zimmerman certainly put himself in a stupid position. however, he felt it was his job (stupidly or not) to patrol the neighborhood, he didn't know this kid, he thought the kid was suspicious and he followed him. probably not the brightest thing to do. this doesnt mean he didnt act in self defense. also, if FL doesn't believe the "being beat up story," how do they explain the blood and grass stains? i guess he could have slipped and fell (on both his front and back). so when i move to florida, im gonna carry a gun with me and follow whoever i please and then if i get into a confrontation, ill just shoot the guy and claim self defense. that's essentially what everyone who is coming to this idiot's defense is condoning. nobody is coming to his defense. everyone who has "defended" him is only pointing out that all the facts aren't known and people shouldn't rush to judgment. the fact that people take it to such extremes ("im going to buy a gun and go to florida") just seems foolish to me. you dont get to do whatever you want to do. you have to show reasonableness. self defense is not a "i said i was justified, thus i win" defense. you have to prove it to a jury and they have to agree with you. other people have claimed self defense under this Florida law and fucking lost and went to prison. seems to me that once the police got the "this was self defense" argument from this guy and he got off quite easily. not arrested or anything damn those constitutional protections that require you to get probable cause before you arrest someone! maybe they screwed up the investigation, i dont know. but the grand jury will determine whether he should be indicted. They know Zimmerman pursued an unarmed kid half his size and killed him. In what world does that not constitute probable cause? The officers involved are fucking inept. in this world. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
Reading that is what convinced me that they're fucking inept.
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Serious question: there are a good number of posters in this thread (most of them have European location labels) who are surprised that Zimmerman was not immediately arrested. Is that how it works in Europe? As soon as the police suspect that you have committed a crime, you get arrested and held?
As, I mentioned earlier, the procedure is almost completely different in the US. Unless it is clear at the time of the incident what happened, police will not arrest anyone until they have sufficient evidence to put them on trial. In this case, the police (apparently), felt like they didn't have enough evidence to disprove Zimmerman's self-defense claim and so even though he shot a kid, they let him go (innocent until proven guilty, no unreasonable bond or bail, habeus corpus, and all that business). Of course they questioned him, and others, and collected evidence, but still felt they could not make an arrest at that time.
For anyone asserting that Zimmerman automatically gives up his right to self-defense when he pursues Martin, please read the law and the jury instruction for yourself. The statement is just false. It seems reasonable and we might agree that the law needs to be changed, but the way it is written now, Zimmerman does not automatically give up his self-defense claim because he pursued.
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On March 23 2012 06:24 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:18 TidusX.Yuna wrote:
"And he's a black male …"
Hate crime. Lock him up for life. Describing someone is not a hate crime or a crime.
Adding "and he's a black male". Along with the other suspicious activity wasn't describing him. It was adding that to the list of suspicious activity. There's a huge difference between "Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male" and something like "He's 6'4, and a black male".
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EPT
