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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On March 22 2012 11:37 Bigtony wrote:
In all seriousness, why do topics like these get posted ALL THE TIME? What is the goal? Really the only reasonable response to this is "I hope that justice is done," because we don't know shit. All you get is a bunch of armchair lawyer/detectives saying "open and shut case, murder. Book'em Dan-o."
Really, is that productive? No it's not productive at all, but that's all we are able to do, because we don't KNOW ANYTHING. It just turns into "Wow this Zimmerman guy is a real piece of shit, he should fucking die." or "Wow America, how you like guns now?" etc.
Just stupid.
Generally I agree, this describes most TL threads of this nature. In this instance by almost all accounts and every link posted here the self-defence argument and the corresponding law is of very questionable applicability here. Guy is either a nutjob, or a nervous wreck who was totally unsuitable to be the kind of neighborhood watchman that he apparently claimed to be.
Also hasn't degenerated into the usual pissing contest over gun control, all in all not bad for a thread of this type!
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I never understood why people were so interested in these random isolated acts of violence. If it was self-defense, it was self-defense. If it was murder, it was murder. Either there's enough evidence to convict him, or there isn't. It says nothing about society or law or people, just about two individuals. I guess the appeal is for people to act self-righteous.
The funny thing to me is, the first time this was reported everyone repeated that this was a white on black crime. Turns out he's hispanic. Half-white, I know, but if you look hispanic, speak spanish, and qualify for every hispanic benefit in the country, you are hispanic.
I don't care about his race at all, I'm just making a point that people are trying to force this into something it's not. Anyway, continue with the national gossip. 
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IMO there is insufficient evidence released so far. As far as we know, Zimmerman was at fault for disobeying a direct order from the dispatch as well as thinking that it would be a good idea to follow who he thought might be a gang member. Meanwhile, Martin may have used unnecessary force in attempting to protect himself, resulting in injury to Zimmerman. Then, something (because we don't know exact details) happened which ended with Martin being shot. Zimmerman was a self-proclaimed neighborhood watch (why?) and should not have been carrying a firearm just based on his own self-proclaimed position. The Stand your Ground law may also apply to Martin if you think about it. Martin was being pursued by somebody he (assumingly) was not familiar. Perhaps he felt threatened based on how Zimmerman was approaching him. But, we can't find out since he's dead.
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On March 22 2012 11:41 tree.hugger wrote:
So the real issue here is; why is this not a case of murder?
If the guy used a knife, instead of a gun, things are totally different.
this is exactly it. thats clear murder in evry way. he follows a random boy walking home for no reason and then shoots him for no reason .and no, there is no situation where a big ass dude HAS to use a gun to defend himself against a unarmed "kid".
also is the thing about the knife true? cause that sounds fucking insane to me.
horrible horrible story.
On March 22 2012 11:45 liberal wrote:I never understood why people were so interested in these random isolated acts of violence. If it was self-defense, it was self-defense. If it was murder, it was murder. Either there's enough evidence to convict him, or there isn't. It says nothing about society or law or people, just about two individuals. I guess the appeal is for people to act self-righteous. The funny thing to me is, the first time this was reported everyone repeated that this was a white on black crime. Turns out he's hispanic. Half-white, I know, but if you look hispanic, speak spanish, and qualify for every hispanic benefit in the country, you are hispanic. I don't care about his race at all, I'm just making a point that people are trying to force this into something it's not. Anyway, continue with the national gossip.
only white guys can be racists? when you instantly assume a 17year old boy thats walking home is "prolly on drugs and up for no good" thats not a big stretch to assume quite the prejudice eh?
also as i said what situation can possible warrant the use of a gun against a unarmed and way way weaker person? using lethal weapons should be a last resort to defend your life. not a "well this guy looks weird,maybe he will punch me, i better shoot him dead now" thing.
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On March 22 2012 11:37 Bigtony wrote:
In all seriousness, why do topics like these get posted ALL THE TIME? What is the goal? Really the only reasonable response to this is "I hope that justice is done," because we don't know shit. All you get is a bunch of armchair lawyer/detectives saying "open and shut case, murder. Book'em Dan-o."
Really, is that productive? No it's not productive at all, but that's all we are able to do, because we don't KNOW ANYTHING. It just turns into "Wow this Zimmerman guy is a real piece of shit, he should fucking die." or "Wow America, how you like guns now?" etc.
Just stupid.
I find that whenever the article involves social problems in the US, there's a lot more constructive discussion (I'm using that term loosely) about how to fix the problem whereas when its about any other country its all "This is why our US constitution/laws ban this shit, you should be more like us".
I guess I just read em for the loldebates in these forums.
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On March 22 2012 11:48 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:41 tree.hugger wrote:
So the real issue here is; why is this not a case of murder?
If the guy used a knife, instead of a gun, things are totally different. this is exactly it. thats clear murder in evry way. he follows a random boy walking home for no reason and then shoots him for no reason .and no, there is no situation where a big ass dude HAS to use a gun to defend himself against a unarmed "kid". also is the thing about the knife true? cause that sounds fucking insane to me. horrible horrible story.
It's because some people hate guns solely for their purpose. Maybe they see each incident as an opportunity to push their agenda but I don't want to get into that.
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this hole story pisses me off. not the dead kid, i really couldnt care less about him. it pisses me off the fact the people are yelling racism. but hey, if he is white or looks white, it must be racism
fuck the racism against white, you see it more than anything these days.
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned
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On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned
Lol you serious? I'm pretty sure it'd be just as loud, with headlines screaming "THE GHETTO IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL"
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On March 22 2012 11:37 Bigtony wrote:
In all seriousness, why do topics like these get posted ALL THE TIME? What is the goal? Really the only reasonable response to this is "I hope that justice is done," because we don't know shit. All you get is a bunch of armchair lawyer/detectives saying "open and shut case, murder. Book'em Dan-o."
Really, is that productive? No it's not productive at all, but that's all we are able to do, because we don't KNOW ANYTHING. It just turns into "Wow this Zimmerman guy is a real piece of shit, he should fucking die." or "Wow America, how you like guns now?" etc.
Just stupid.
It's productive to examine and discuss social problems if for no other reason than to reevaluate a law or policy. As has already been outlined in this thread, the validity and scope of the "stand your ground" policy is being examined. With respect to guns, sorry if you'd prefer to ignore when these things happen, but some of us wouldn't.
On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot  . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't.
What exactly was at stake? Why would you get into a physical altercation with a complete stranger in a dark street apparently over nothing? Does this sound like reasonable/responsible/sensible behavior? It isn't, is it? Why does it all of a sudden become more reasonable or socially responsible when a gun is involved? I don't even know if it matters who is screaming for help. If it's Trayvon then it makes Zimmerman look crazy and irresponsible. If it's Zimmerman then it makes Zimmerman look crazy and irresponsible. Is it reasonable to put yourself in a situation where you'll be screaming for help over nothing? Is it reasonable to become a self-styled neighborhood watchdog? Why does it suddenly become reasonable if you have a gun in your hand? Why is there a stand your ground law to validate and defend this behavior? Is an armed confrontation for no apparent reason really considered responsible gun ownership? The stand your ground laws sound very dubious indeed.
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Here's a photo of the shooter and the deceased.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GqQcj.jpg)
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
this hole story pisses me off. not the dead kid, i really couldnt care less about him. it pisses me off the fact the people are yelling racism. but hey, if he is white or looks white, it must be racism
fuck the racism against white, you see it more than anything these days.
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned
Do you understand how racism actually developed historically? It's an entirely different dynamic when, in this case a white male (generally accepted as being the dominant social class in the States), follows and shoots a minority after making questionable (thought not damning) statements on a call to the police. The racism angle is worth a look at, even if it turns out not to be the case it's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
All this 'us whites are the oppressed' shit fucking pisses me off, complete and utter bollocks. Racism towards whites does exist for sure, but it does not have a similar impact when travelling from minority to majority group. I live in a very, very white nation and it's patently obvious that this is the case.
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On March 22 2012 11:53 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned Lol you serious? I'm pretty sure it'd be just as loud, with headlines screaming "THE GHETTO IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL"
lol not even alittle. this happened outside a gated community? read the story again
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It's weird that people think that having 250 pounds of weight on you is an advantage when your chasing after someone and then getting into a fight. I forgot that the best boxers train by sitting on their couch eating doritos. Sure, his weight will give him the upper hand for a bit, but soon he will be gassed and be useless in a fight.
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On March 22 2012 11:55 liberal wrote:Here's a photo of the shooter and the deceased.
EXTREMELY deceiving picture...The kid was 17, not 12.
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On March 22 2012 11:41 tree.hugger wrote:
This is just such an awful situation all around, but it seems incredibly clear that (A) Trayvon Martin was not guilty of anything and had done nothing to act suspicious, that (B) the entire reason for this incident occurring was that Mr. Zimmerman pursued Martin, and that (C) Mr. Zimmerman had no rational reason for believing he was in danger from Martin.
i agree with (a) and (b). but i dont see how you can get to (c). we dont know what happened when the guy caught up with the kid.
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On March 22 2012 11:55 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
this hole story pisses me off. not the dead kid, i really couldnt care less about him. it pisses me off the fact the people are yelling racism. but hey, if he is white or looks white, it must be racism
fuck the racism against white, you see it more than anything these days.
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned Do you understand how racism actually developed historically? It's an entirely different dynamic when, in this case a white male (generally accepted as being the dominant social class in the States), follows and shoots a minority after making questionable (thought not damning) statements on a call to the police. The racism angle is worth a look at, even if it turns out not to be the case it's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. All this 'us whites are the oppressed' shit fucking pisses me off, complete and utter bollocks. Racism towards whites does exist for sure, but it does not have a similar impact when travelling from minority to majority group. I live in a very, very white nation and it's patently obvious that this is the case.
i didnt say whites are oppressed, i said pretty much every single time a white person hurts a black person its automatically racism, but never the other way around. Al Sharpton goes around spewing the diareha that comes from his mouth and people eat it up like its the word of god. i watched interviews with the kids mother and her lawyer on the today show and all this woman said repeatedly was the guy is a racist and should be tried on hate crimes along with murder etc. this woman doesnt know what the fuck she is talking about, all she knows is her son is dead and she wants justice, but hey as long as she can blame this guy shooting her kid because he is black and not because of some other reason of maybe the kid was doing something wrong, or maybe zimmerman was just a fucking nutbag. no one knows for sure whether this guy killed the kid because he is black, and it is not possible to know, thats why it pisses me off. its thrown into everything in the media
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
On March 22 2012 12:01 ozzy1346 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:55 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
this hole story pisses me off. not the dead kid, i really couldnt care less about him. it pisses me off the fact the people are yelling racism. but hey, if he is white or looks white, it must be racism
fuck the racism against white, you see it more than anything these days.
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned Do you understand how racism actually developed historically? It's an entirely different dynamic when, in this case a white male (generally accepted as being the dominant social class in the States), follows and shoots a minority after making questionable (thought not damning) statements on a call to the police. The racism angle is worth a look at, even if it turns out not to be the case it's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. All this 'us whites are the oppressed' shit fucking pisses me off, complete and utter bollocks. Racism towards whites does exist for sure, but it does not have a similar impact when travelling from minority to majority group. I live in a very, very white nation and it's patently obvious that this is the case. i didnt say whites are oppressed, i said pretty much every single time a white person hurts a black person its automatically racism, but never the other way around. Al Sharpton goes around spewing the diareha that comes from his mouth and people eat it up like its the word of god. i watched interviews with the kids mother and her lawyer on the today show and all this woman said repeatedly was the guy is a racist and should be tried on hate crimes along with murder etc. this woman doesnt know what the fuck she is talking about, all she knows is her son is dead and she wants justice, but hey as long as she can blame this guy shooting her kid because he is black and not because of some other reason of maybe the kid was doing something wrong, or maybe zimmerman was just a fucking nutbag. no one knows for sure whether this guy killed the kid because he is black, and it is not possible to know, thats why it pisses me off. its thrown into everything in the media In this case the charge of racism has validity, ergo why it is mentioned in this case. While I too dislike a tendency for minorities to play the 'racism' card even when it is not applicable, in THIS instance I don't see how the racism angle can be entirely avoided.
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On March 22 2012 11:54 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:37 Bigtony wrote:
In all seriousness, why do topics like these get posted ALL THE TIME? What is the goal? Really the only reasonable response to this is "I hope that justice is done," because we don't know shit. All you get is a bunch of armchair lawyer/detectives saying "open and shut case, murder. Book'em Dan-o."
Really, is that productive? No it's not productive at all, but that's all we are able to do, because we don't KNOW ANYTHING. It just turns into "Wow this Zimmerman guy is a real piece of shit, he should fucking die." or "Wow America, how you like guns now?" etc.
Just stupid. It's productive to examine and discuss social problems if for no other reason than to reevaluate a law or policy. As has already been outlined in this thread, the validity and scope of the "stand your ground" policy is being examined. With respect to guns, sorry if you'd prefer to ignore when these things happen, but some of us wouldn't.
I don't want to ignore these things, but the TeamLiquid general forum is a terrible place to do it. A very limited number of people are saying anything rational, the rest -> refer to my post.
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On March 22 2012 11:27 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:21 jvo wrote:On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't. the point is Zimmerman pursued the kid, what is the kid supposed to do? hes defending himself and fighting for his life which is why Zimmerman was bloodied Just beacuse zimmerman is going to confront the kid about why hes walking around in the rain by himself talking on his blue tooth doesn't mean that hes threatening his life. And how is the guy fighting for his life if zimmerman could have just shot the kid the moment he saw him? All this drama with trayvon is covering up the news that the french have found the terrorist that killed the jews the other day and are in a standoff with him. Its pretty funny to see how all the news networks are reacting with this fox hasn't even broke the story on their website.
I walk a lot. In fact, I walk everywhere, every day, all times of day. I own a car, but I love to go for long walks whenever it's convenient.
If I'm walking somewhere, at night, in the rain (which has been the occasion many times) and I notice a truck following me, I certainly would feel quite threatened immediately and begin contemplating an escape. If this person left the vehicle and tried to confront me (and I know this person is not a police officer), regardless of the concept of this person even having a gun, I am most likely going to take off. After being chased by a person with that much of a size advantage for no reason (no assumption that this person has any legal motivation, could possibly be getting ready to mug me or assault me), you certainly bet I would feel threatened for my life.
At this point a person who was walking attempted to defend himself from someone without authority and was shot by said person.
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On March 22 2012 11:50 ozzy1346 wrote:
this hole story pisses me off. not the dead kid, i really couldnt care less about him. it pisses me off the fact the people are yelling racism. but hey, if he is white or looks white, it must be racism
fuck the racism against white, you see it more than anything these days.
if it were a black guy shooting a white kid not a word of racism would have been mentioned
Shit I hate when people "these days" stuff.
There isn't real prejudice against a group that is in the most benefitted position in a given moment. Stop being paranoid.
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