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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 22 2012 12:21 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:19 HardlyNever wrote:On March 22 2012 12:11 Lockitupv2 wrote:
I dont understand why race is a factor. Shouldnt the focus be on whether or not he was acting in self defense? What if it was white on white or black on black, shouldnt it still be investigated? Because if race is a provable issue, it is a hate crime, and is a federal offense that can be tried outside of Florida jurisdiction. But why should a hate crime murder be considered worse the 'normal' murder?
It's not an issue of "better" or "worse." In the 1960s, federal laws were made that allowed the federal government to prosecute hate crimes (crimes based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). This was largely enacted because african-americans were being murdered/lynched in the South, and the perpetrators were getting off scott-free, usually do to racist white juries.
Murder is always a state law(prosecuted by the state). Hate crimes are a federal offense (prosecuted by federal prosecutors).
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On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police.
Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot.
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On March 22 2012 12:31 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police. Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot.
could show that there was a struggle that may disprove the self-defense claim.
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On March 22 2012 12:28 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:26 Mindcrime wrote:On March 22 2012 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 12:17 Mindcrime wrote:On March 22 2012 09:15 Sniperdadx wrote:
It's sad to see people jump to conclusions. I think many people forget that in this country you're innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. He bears the burden of proof. you have to prove murder before he has to prove self-defense. If he admits to pulling the trigger and ending a life... no. but he isnt admitting to anything; he is refusing to make a statement. so, the DA has to prove its case before he is obligated to do anything, including supporting his self defense claim.
That depends on what you mean by "prove". That's not the word I would use for getting an indictment.
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On March 22 2012 12:31 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police. Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot.
They need an autopsy because there's a dead body with no witnesses. Sometimes the body is the best witness. If Martin's screams were a result of being struck and held before being shot by Zimmerman, the autopsy might provide evidence of that, and then self-defense can be thrown out.
Edit: Also the autopsy could probably show how far away Zimmerman was when he shot Martin. If Martin was farther away as opposed to closer, it seems like Zimmerman couldn't exactly be in fear for his life. But this is unlikely because it was a plain execution. Not sure how you can cause a stalker to scream (implying Zimmerman was telling the truth, that he feared for his life and acted accordingly) using a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea.
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On March 22 2012 12:33 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:31 Chargelot wrote:On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police. Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot. They need an autopsy because there's a dead body with no witnesses. Sometimes the body is the best witness. If Martin's screams were a result of being struck and held before being shot by Zimmerman, the autopsy might provide evidence of that, and then self-defense can be thrown out.
But Martin being struck down isnt evidence against Zimmerman acting in defense.
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On March 22 2012 12:33 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:28 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 12:26 Mindcrime wrote:On March 22 2012 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 12:17 Mindcrime wrote:On March 22 2012 09:15 Sniperdadx wrote:
It's sad to see people jump to conclusions. I think many people forget that in this country you're innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. He bears the burden of proof. you have to prove murder before he has to prove self-defense. If he admits to pulling the trigger and ending a life... no. but he isnt admitting to anything; he is refusing to make a statement. so, the DA has to prove its case before he is obligated to do anything, including supporting his self defense claim. That depends on what you mean by "prove". That's not the word I would use for getting an indictment.
i use it as it is used in the phrase "innocent until proven guilty." we dont know what the DA will go for. if he goes for murder in the first, he will have to prove intent, which im pretty sure he wont be able to do. if he goes for murder in the second, he may have a better shot, but the punishment is not as harsh. nevertheless, until he proves beyond a reasonable doubt as to those, the defendant can sit back and laugh at him. he has no obligation to put forth any evidence or argument.
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"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
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On March 22 2012 12:30 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:21 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 22 2012 12:19 HardlyNever wrote:On March 22 2012 12:11 Lockitupv2 wrote:
I dont understand why race is a factor. Shouldnt the focus be on whether or not he was acting in self defense? What if it was white on white or black on black, shouldnt it still be investigated? Because if race is a provable issue, it is a hate crime, and is a federal offense that can be tried outside of Florida jurisdiction. But why should a hate crime murder be considered worse the 'normal' murder? It's not an issue of "better" or "worse." In the 1960s, federal laws were made that allowed the federal government to prosecute hate crimes (crimes based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). This was largely enacted because african-americans were being murdered/lynched in the South, and the perpetrators were getting off scott-free, usually do to racist white juries. Murder is always a state law(prosecuted by the state). Hate crimes are a federal offense (prosecuted by federal prosecutors).
That makes sense.
Do you think we still need these laws?
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Saying someone is a black male is a factual statement, not at all indicating a racial bias. It's a descriptor, just like height, weight, eye color, etc.
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On March 22 2012 12:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:33 hp.Shell wrote:On March 22 2012 12:31 Chargelot wrote:On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police. Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot. They need an autopsy because there's a dead body with no witnesses. Sometimes the body is the best witness. If Martin's screams were a result of being struck and held before being shot by Zimmerman, the autopsy might provide evidence of that, and then self-defense can be thrown out. But Martin being struck down isnt evidence against Zimmerman acting in defense.
I usually feel more confident and not afraid after I've hit someone and they've fallen to the ground. Before pulling my 9mm out of my pocket and listening to him scream.
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On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer.
I wouldnt say describing someone as a black male is racism.
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On March 22 2012 12:38 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer. I would say describing someone as a black male is racism.
you realize that police dispatchers want to know what race the person is, and he was describing the person so that a police officer can find him.
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Northern Ireland23736 Posts
On March 22 2012 12:38 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer. I would say describing someone as a black male is racism.
Not necessarily, you tend to describe someone by what their defining characteristics are to you, and if they're outside of your ethnic grouping that is the first thing that will spring to mind.
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On March 22 2012 12:37 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:30 HardlyNever wrote:On March 22 2012 12:21 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 22 2012 12:19 HardlyNever wrote:On March 22 2012 12:11 Lockitupv2 wrote:
I dont understand why race is a factor. Shouldnt the focus be on whether or not he was acting in self defense? What if it was white on white or black on black, shouldnt it still be investigated? Because if race is a provable issue, it is a hate crime, and is a federal offense that can be tried outside of Florida jurisdiction. But why should a hate crime murder be considered worse the 'normal' murder? It's not an issue of "better" or "worse." In the 1960s, federal laws were made that allowed the federal government to prosecute hate crimes (crimes based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). This was largely enacted because african-americans were being murdered/lynched in the South, and the perpetrators were getting off scott-free, usually do to racist white juries. Murder is always a state law(prosecuted by the state). Hate crimes are a federal offense (prosecuted by federal prosecutors). That makes sense. Do you think we still need these laws?
Yes. Not only for cases like this, but it has been used a lot in "gay bashing" hate crimes as well.
Bigotry hasn't died out in the USA.
Edit: In terms of "racism" in the call, the only two things I could pick up on were "they" as in "they always get away with this," then that possibility of the racial slur. The dispatch operator asked what color he was "white, black, hispanic," so Zimmerman answering that couldn't be construed as racist.
Someone might argue "they" might refer to the burglars he mentioned on the call, but it could also have racists connotations. That would be for a jury to decide.
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Soooooooo ... murder is legal in Florida now?
Seriously, imagine how easy it would be to call '911' in Florida, notify them that you're 'in danger' and just kill someone.
This is exactly the kind of thing that makes other countries look at America cross-eyed.
User was warned for this post
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On March 22 2012 12:39 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:38 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer. I would say describing someone as a black male is racism. you realize that police dispatchers want to know what race the person is, and he was describing the person so that a police officer can find him.
If you listen again, he already tells the police officer he's a black male. He then says it again in the quote I posted right after saying his hands are in his waistband. The police officer didn't ask for the race twice.
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On March 22 2012 12:31 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:29 Leporello wrote:
No autopsy.
No witness examinations after a defenseless kid gets shot.
Stay classy police. Did they really need an autopsy? It's not as if he died of colon cancer 11 seconds after being shot.
It could be important, at least for a tox-screen.
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On March 22 2012 12:39 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:38 Lockitupv2 wrote:On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer. I would say describing someone as a black male is racism. Not necessarily, you tend to describe someone by what their defining characteristics are to you, and if they're outside of your ethnic grouping that is the first thing that will spring to mind.
He was being sarcastic, I assume.
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On March 22 2012 12:38 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 12:36 knOxStarcraft wrote:
"...He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male..." as Zimmerman says. That makes me think this was a racial issue right away.
Zimmerman is also questioning the fact that someone is walking in the rain at around 7:00 PM... does he want the kid to bore a tunnel under the neighborhood to the house he wants or what?
Next he follows the kid after being told by the police to NOT follow the kid.
Then the voice calling for help does not sound anything like Zimmerman's voice from the 911 call.
Finally, this guy is a self-appointed neighborhood watch with a fucking gun!? All I see here is some fat scumbag who's on a powertrip and was too fat or stupid to become a police officer. I would say describing someone as a black male is racism.
Describing someone as Black is not racist.
I'm pretty sure following a guy with a gun because he's Black is.
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EPT
