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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. |
On March 22 2012 10:42 _-NoMaN-_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 09:30 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. Except he wasn't a cop he was a self appointed Neighborhood Watchmen who chased after a kid after being told by 911 operator not to. he sounds like a dipshit to me and most likely guilty. lets get that out there right at the beginning. but that doesnt mean he didn't legitimately feared for his life and shot the kid in self defense. and the fact that he was running with a loaded gun doesnt automatically say that he didnt act in self defense. On March 22 2012 09:30 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On March 22 2012 09:27 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 22 2012 09:26 seiferoth10 wrote:
The takeaway is he was chasing the kid with a loaded gun. Can it really be defense if you're chasing someone with a loaded gun? I don't think so. all police give chase with loaded guns. if the person grabs (or already has) a weapon during the chase and attacks you, it doesnt matter that you were running after them with a loaded gun. He isn't even remotely close to a police officer. Community watch just reports crimes to the police like he did. They aren't supposed to hunt the people down with loaded guns. If you listen to the 911 call you'll notice the person on the other end tells him to not follow the kid at all. i understand he is not a cop. i was just addressing the point that him running after the kid with a loaded gun somehow presumes it wasn't self defense. This case illustrates the number 1 problem with the concept of handguns as self-defense. The fact that zimmerman was carrying a gun means that the gun itself represented a mortal threat to zimmerman. The fact that any potential assailant may or may not be armed is basically irrelevant, as a single weapon may be used by either party. Therefore, the fact that you have a gun for self-defense makes it necessary to shoot preemptively, negating any and all less lethal methods of self-defense. This is Cold War logic, and it is chilling. The fact that this ideology is so entrenched in the legal system is deeply troubling. I weep for the boy and his family, and, though we may have yet to suffer from it, for the rest of us as well.
Cold war logic would dictate what you would do if both people had the ability to kill the other. If you both have guns then neither of you will use those guns. This is the same motivation that police use when killing in self defense all the time. The cold war benefit that having a gun because that no one will threaten you because of the gun. If you become the aggressor or someone agress's onto you with the knowledge that you have the gun then the benefit of the gun goes away.
It would be no different then any other weapon but in the case of the gun you have security that extends out of you're immediate reach. that's the benefit that people have owning a gun over mace or a knife or a tazer.
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It seems like even cops have to go through even more than this guy did after firing a firearm.
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On March 22 2012 11:00 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:52 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:40 Silentness wrote:On March 22 2012 10:37 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:24 BlackJack wrote:
Wow, OP. How can you leave out that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose when police arrived?
What happened (I believe):
Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin. Martin was getting the better of him. Zimmerman screams for help for nearby neighbors to jump in. Eventually he shoots Martin.
It's still something like manslaughter in my opinion, since he initiated the actions that led to Martin's death, but it was not a cold-blooded murder.
You should really consider updating the OP with the fact that Zimmerman had wounds if you care about being fair and aren't just trying to start a witch hunt. And Zimmerman is from a Spanish speaking minority with black friends and family members. He cared a lot about his community members and was the mentor of a few black youth in it. I'm sure that hes really a white raceist that tried to kill some poor black kid minding his own business. People would use the littleist thing to whip themselves into a fury and get angry at something. It doesn't help anyone and all it does is teach everyone that white people are suppose to hate black people. So can you explain to me WHY was Zimmerman following this kid? The 911 Dispatcher clearly told him to not follow, but Mr. Zimmerman played hero anyways... I could say I have black friends and family members too, but does that mean it's OK for me to chase down a black guy and shoot him because I felt threatened? He saw a guy who looked like a gang member that he didn't know going though where he lives. He goes to confront him and tries to frisk him down looking for drugs or guns and he doesn't like that so he struggles for a bit and the young athletic kid beats on him until hes hurting bad and pulls out his gun and shoots the guy. He shouldn't confront him. End of the story. He warned the police very well. But you don't go and confront a supposed "gang member", what was he expecting if it was the case? Go on a gun fight in the middle of the neighborhood?
Yup. As a neighborhood watch volunteer you are A) not supposed to carry a gun, and B) not supposed to confront anybody. He was not hired, wasn't official security, he was a private citizen.
Back when I was 17, if I saw an older stranger following me at night when I'm on my way back home I'd run too.
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On March 22 2012 11:00 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:52 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:40 Silentness wrote:On March 22 2012 10:37 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:24 BlackJack wrote:
Wow, OP. How can you leave out that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose when police arrived?
What happened (I believe):
Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin. Martin was getting the better of him. Zimmerman screams for help for nearby neighbors to jump in. Eventually he shoots Martin.
It's still something like manslaughter in my opinion, since he initiated the actions that led to Martin's death, but it was not a cold-blooded murder.
You should really consider updating the OP with the fact that Zimmerman had wounds if you care about being fair and aren't just trying to start a witch hunt. And Zimmerman is from a Spanish speaking minority with black friends and family members. He cared a lot about his community members and was the mentor of a few black youth in it. I'm sure that hes really a white raceist that tried to kill some poor black kid minding his own business. People would use the littleist thing to whip themselves into a fury and get angry at something. It doesn't help anyone and all it does is teach everyone that white people are suppose to hate black people. So can you explain to me WHY was Zimmerman following this kid? The 911 Dispatcher clearly told him to not follow, but Mr. Zimmerman played hero anyways... I could say I have black friends and family members too, but does that mean it's OK for me to chase down a black guy and shoot him because I felt threatened? He saw a guy who looked like a gang member that he didn't know going though where he lives. He goes to confront him and tries to frisk him down looking for drugs or guns and he doesn't like that so he struggles for a bit and the young athletic kid beats on him until hes hurting bad and pulls out his gun and shoots the guy. He shouldn't confront him. End of the story. He warned the police very well. But you don't go and confront a supposed "gang member", what was he expecting if it was the case? Go on a gun fight in the middle of the neighborhood?
Of course he shouldn't have hes going to regret ever doing it for the rest of his life and hes going to have to live with the shame of killing someone. Hes not going to be able to see anyone he cares about again and they're going to get repercussions for this as well. This isn't about what he should have done its about whats going to happen to him beacuse of this. By the laws that govern us in this land he deserves no punishment. What else should people demand more then blind justice?
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On March 22 2012 08:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
George Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighbourhood watch volunteer
WHAT?!
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On March 22 2012 11:09 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:00 TanTzoR wrote:On March 22 2012 10:52 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:40 Silentness wrote:On March 22 2012 10:37 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:24 BlackJack wrote:
Wow, OP. How can you leave out that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose when police arrived?
What happened (I believe):
Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin. Martin was getting the better of him. Zimmerman screams for help for nearby neighbors to jump in. Eventually he shoots Martin.
It's still something like manslaughter in my opinion, since he initiated the actions that led to Martin's death, but it was not a cold-blooded murder.
You should really consider updating the OP with the fact that Zimmerman had wounds if you care about being fair and aren't just trying to start a witch hunt. And Zimmerman is from a Spanish speaking minority with black friends and family members. He cared a lot about his community members and was the mentor of a few black youth in it. I'm sure that hes really a white raceist that tried to kill some poor black kid minding his own business. People would use the littleist thing to whip themselves into a fury and get angry at something. It doesn't help anyone and all it does is teach everyone that white people are suppose to hate black people. So can you explain to me WHY was Zimmerman following this kid? The 911 Dispatcher clearly told him to not follow, but Mr. Zimmerman played hero anyways... I could say I have black friends and family members too, but does that mean it's OK for me to chase down a black guy and shoot him because I felt threatened? He saw a guy who looked like a gang member that he didn't know going though where he lives. He goes to confront him and tries to frisk him down looking for drugs or guns and he doesn't like that so he struggles for a bit and the young athletic kid beats on him until hes hurting bad and pulls out his gun and shoots the guy. He shouldn't confront him. End of the story. He warned the police very well. But you don't go and confront a supposed "gang member", what was he expecting if it was the case? Go on a gun fight in the middle of the neighborhood? Of course he shouldn't have hes going to regret ever doing it for the rest of his life and hes going to have to live with the shame of killing someone. Hes not going to be able to see anyone he cares about again and they're going to get repercussions for this as well. This isn't about what he should have done its about whats going to happen to him beacuse of this. By the laws that govern us in this land he deserves no punishment. What else should people demand more then blind justice?
How the hell does the self defense law hold if 1. He confronted the kid 2. You can clearly hear the kid screaming for help, which most likely means he was down and not posing any danger to Zimmerman, Its murder plain and simple.
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On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot  . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot.
You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't.
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On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't.
the point is Zimmerman pursued the kid, what is the kid supposed to do? hes defending himself and fighting for his life which is why Zimmerman was bloodied
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What a joke. Sadly, this is inevitable when idiots get their hands on guns in a setting where people have been told they "have the right" to defend themselves and their property with lethal force.
The claim of self defense falls apart after you've done everything in your power to seek out a confrontation. Put this idiot in jail for 40 years. Can we start regulating guns please?
On March 22 2012 08:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
George Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighbourhood watch volunteer
Translation: I'm pretending to be John Wayne. Seen any black people?
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On March 22 2012 11:21 jvo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't. the point is Zimmerman pursued the kid, what is the kid supposed to do? hes defending himself and fighting for his life which is why Zimmerman was bloodied
Just beacuse zimmerman is going to confront the kid about why hes walking around in the rain by himself talking on his blue tooth doesn't mean that hes threatening his life. And how is the guy fighting for his life if zimmerman could have just shot the kid the moment he saw him?
All this drama with trayvon is covering up the news that the french have found the terrorist that killed the jews the other day and are in a standoff with him. Its pretty funny to see how all the news networks are reacting with this fox hasn't even broke the story on their website.
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How could anyone with a clue defend this guy. He followed (by his own fucking admission) this kid. Chose to follow him. With a loaded gun. That is murder. There is nothing else to call it.
This "stand your ground" bullshit needs to get overturned. If there is one reason I'd leave this country, it is because of the NRA and all this bullshit laws that let idiots like this carry guns around and shoot people, and hardly have to answer for it. It is like the wild west, who ever is left standing is right.
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those 9/11 calls scare the hell out of me. i could have easily been in that situation when I was in high school if this Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch near me
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The community and the people around this must be pretty tense at the moment. The parties should be physically separated from each other.
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On March 22 2012 11:09 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:00 TanTzoR wrote:On March 22 2012 10:52 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:40 Silentness wrote:On March 22 2012 10:37 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:24 BlackJack wrote:
Wow, OP. How can you leave out that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose when police arrived?
What happened (I believe):
Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin. Martin was getting the better of him. Zimmerman screams for help for nearby neighbors to jump in. Eventually he shoots Martin.
It's still something like manslaughter in my opinion, since he initiated the actions that led to Martin's death, but it was not a cold-blooded murder.
You should really consider updating the OP with the fact that Zimmerman had wounds if you care about being fair and aren't just trying to start a witch hunt. And Zimmerman is from a Spanish speaking minority with black friends and family members. He cared a lot about his community members and was the mentor of a few black youth in it. I'm sure that hes really a white raceist that tried to kill some poor black kid minding his own business. People would use the littleist thing to whip themselves into a fury and get angry at something. It doesn't help anyone and all it does is teach everyone that white people are suppose to hate black people. So can you explain to me WHY was Zimmerman following this kid? The 911 Dispatcher clearly told him to not follow, but Mr. Zimmerman played hero anyways... I could say I have black friends and family members too, but does that mean it's OK for me to chase down a black guy and shoot him because I felt threatened? He saw a guy who looked like a gang member that he didn't know going though where he lives. He goes to confront him and tries to frisk him down looking for drugs or guns and he doesn't like that so he struggles for a bit and the young athletic kid beats on him until hes hurting bad and pulls out his gun and shoots the guy. He shouldn't confront him. End of the story. He warned the police very well. But you don't go and confront a supposed "gang member", what was he expecting if it was the case? Go on a gun fight in the middle of the neighborhood? Of course he shouldn't have hes going to regret ever doing it for the rest of his life and hes going to have to live with the shame of killing someone. Hes not going to be able to see anyone he cares about again and they're going to get repercussions for this as well. This isn't about what he should have done its about whats going to happen to him beacuse of this. By the laws that govern us in this land he deserves no punishment. What else should people demand more then blind justice?
1) "Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male … Something's wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is … These assholes, they always get away."
Doesn't sound like he's gonna regret his actions. If he's the type of person who carries around a gun, confronts a teenager over nothing, and shoots him for no apparent reason (maybe because he was black), he's likely not of the ilk to regret killing someone. Not that his regret is even relevant.
2) By the laws that govern us in this land he deserves no punishment? Are you kidding me? How exactly are you interpreting the law? What has he done other than grab his gun, find someone he doesn't like the look of, pursue him, and shoot him dead? I don't know what kind of liberties you'd need to take interpreting the law to decide this is legal, but if you're saying the laws surrounding self defense are too vague then at least I can agree with that.
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On March 22 2012 11:27 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 11:21 jvo wrote:On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't. the point is Zimmerman pursued the kid, what is the kid supposed to do? hes defending himself and fighting for his life which is why Zimmerman was bloodied Just beacuse zimmerman is going to confront the kid about why hes walking around in the rain by himself talking on his blue tooth doesn't mean that hes threatening his life. And how is the guy fighting for his life if zimmerman could have just shot the kid the moment he saw him? All this drama with trayvon is covering up the news that the french have found the terrorist that killed the jews the other day and are in a standoff with him. Its pretty funny to see how all the news networks are reacting with this fox hasn't even broke the story on their website.
ok, what would you do if you were approached by a stranger at night? the point is Zimmerman APPROACHED the kid when he was told not to. when youre in a fight, your life is being threatened. based on the evidence so far, i dont see how youre arguing for Zimmerman
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In all seriousness, why do topics like these get posted ALL THE TIME? What is the goal? Really the only reasonable response to this is "I hope that justice is done," because we don't know shit. All you get is a bunch of armchair lawyer/detectives saying "open and shut case, murder. Book'em Dan-o."
Really, is that productive? No it's not productive at all, but that's all we are able to do, because we don't KNOW ANYTHING. It just turns into "Wow this Zimmerman guy is a real piece of shit, he should fucking die." or "Wow America, how you like guns now?" etc.
Just stupid.
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I thought the self defense act only works in your own home in the state of florida? Wow, this is disgusting tough. Can't believe this guy is not in jail yet.
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On March 22 2012 11:14 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:56 Megaliskuu wrote:Its sad to hear the 911 call where you can hear the kid screaming for help for like 30 seconds until he gets shot . Sounds like Trayvon was subdued by Zimmerman, no need to be shot. You don't know that's Trayvon screaming for help. Long before the 911 calls were released and on the night of the shooting when police questioned Zimmerman he said "I was screaming for help and nobody would come, I didn't have a choice!" Considering that Zimmerman was bloodied, it's more likely that he tried to subdue Martin before shooting him, but he couldn't.
for someone that weighs 250 vs someone who weighs 140, he must be one weak POS if he says he couldnt subdue the kid without shooting. this is just a case of someone who thinks he's more important than he really is, self appointed neighbourhood watcher? come on, he probably fantasizes that he's a cop all day long while running around with a gun.
either way, this white man chose to confront the black kid, not the other way around. if he gets away, what's to stop any random person to confront another random person and shooting them with no reason? all they have to say is oh i thought he was reaching for something in his pocket.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This is just such an awful situation all around, but it seems incredibly clear that (A) Trayvon Martin was not guilty of anything and had done nothing to act suspicious, that (B) the entire reason for this incident occurring was that Mr. Zimmerman pursued Martin, and that (C) Mr. Zimmerman had no rational reason for believing he was in danger from Martin.
Because of this, and because of Mr. Zimmerman's past comments I think we can easily draw the conclusions that Mr. Zimmerman was prejudiced to see Martin as suspicious because of his race, and that Mr. Zimmerman's use of force was completely disproportionate.
So the real issue here is; why is this not a case of murder?
The answer, as the OP says, is that under Florida law, the burden of proof skewed in favor of the 'self-defense' argument to a really unusual amount. Police are required to accept 'self-defense' as an explanation and are not required to question it. And honestly, I find that incredibly appalling. This is one of those NRA-promoted laws that simply defies common sense, one that seeks to not trust in the fairness of the law to tell the difference between 'self-defense' and aggression and instead pushes the boundary so far in the other direction that citizens can get away with murder with a gun. If the guy used a knife, instead of a gun, things are totally different.
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On March 22 2012 11:01 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 10:40 Silentness wrote:On March 22 2012 10:37 Sermokala wrote:On March 22 2012 10:24 BlackJack wrote:
Wow, OP. How can you leave out that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose when police arrived?
What happened (I believe):
Zimmerman picked a fight with Martin. Martin was getting the better of him. Zimmerman screams for help for nearby neighbors to jump in. Eventually he shoots Martin.
It's still something like manslaughter in my opinion, since he initiated the actions that led to Martin's death, but it was not a cold-blooded murder.
You should really consider updating the OP with the fact that Zimmerman had wounds if you care about being fair and aren't just trying to start a witch hunt. And Zimmerman is from a Spanish speaking minority with black friends and family members. He cared a lot about his community members and was the mentor of a few black youth in it. I'm sure that hes really a white raceist that tried to kill some poor black kid minding his own business. People would use the littleist thing to whip themselves into a fury and get angry at something. It doesn't help anyone and all it does is teach everyone that white people are suppose to hate black people. So can you explain to me WHY was Zimmerman following this kid? The 911 Dispatcher clearly told him to not follow, but Mr. Zimmerman played hero anyways... I could say I have black friends and family members too, but does that mean it's OK for me to chase down a black guy and shoot him because I felt threatened? Or perhaps explain his blatantly racist recorded conversation with the police? Saying "they always get away" and that the kid was a "fucking coon" does not suggest you have no preconceived biases regarding race.
"They" refers to the recent robbers...The neighborhood had a ton of robberies from what I understand recently. (I could be wrong), and the "fucking coon" is clearly a doctored voice. The lawyer from treyvon doesn't even believe he said that...
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EPT
