EPT[D] Insight into the "Sc2 vs LoL" e-sport debate - Page 2
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
This happens really fast, in LoL when a team gets behind, the game feels so one sided, but the winning team can´t just win, they have to keep farming and doing ganks while the other team turtles, then after around 20-30 boring minutes the game ends. Sure people have different opinions, but watching LoL is boring for me. | ||
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
I realize not everyone feels this way, but I hope that it means that SC2 has appeal to non-players, which is something it needs if it's going to alst as an ESPORT. | ||
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
itself and be the representative of the team game. Team Leagues in SC2 are awesome but it comes down to selection of the right individuals rather than the propogation of the individual skills into team skills directly. That said, I find that shooters should fill this role better, but they are all so "tweaky" in nature that it is all down to execution. A huge advantage isn't gained by being well protected and seeing someone in the open unless you can kill them 100% of the time. The person in the open has a much higher chance of saving his own ass in that game than getting way behind in an SC2 match or from being ganked in MOBA games. If MOBA games had less "startup" time if all players decided to go AFK farm mode via ways to abuse this early passivity or speeding up the process, it would earn a much higher entertaining value to watch streams or competitive events BECAUSE in SC2 a fast expand can be responded to with an allin or a FE on its own, in which the "afk expo mode" finishes within three minutes and there is scouting that needs to be done by both players and analysis of their motives into the mid game. Even in TvT there aren't big flashy attacks post midgame timings but there is always interesting scouting, positioning, expanding, and dropping to keep the entertainment value high in both FP mode (streams) and obs mode (casted). In the end LoL will be more popular because of the F2P model which attracts exponentially more players (I tried LoL because it was free and a lot of people tried it, I tried SC2 because I wanted a strategy game with a deep dynamic and was willing to shell out for it at the time. SC2 required a search to try, LoL kind of falls into your lap). I will always think SC2 and most RTS will have more depth because of the amount of exerted control a player has to be at the top of the top over every single thing from Simcity, to scouting, to posturing, to spending money, to decide to 2base allin, 1 base allin, timing attack, afk macro mode, etc from game to game. Mobas lack the depth in choosing the optimal way to win, as it is usually afk farm mode for 20 minutes in LoL and sometimes longer. A full game of SC2 could have transpired in that time with both major and minor engagements, analysis of the information both players have of each other etc. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
edit: this has been explained to me and i was confused. ignore my ignorant post. =D | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
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eohs
United States677 Posts
Its the people that play the game. in SC2 you have the trolls the dicks and so forth, but you have more helpful people then in the other games. My point is if LoL and Moba games want esports to take them serious the community has to show itself they want to be taken serious. For the most part the SC2 fans that hate any LoL game its the fact we dont like the way most players act in them. So we are turned off right away from it. That is just my opinion on why so much flame for the LoL community. I still don't like LoL i still don't think it will be taken serious as a Esports game. AS I SAID MY OPINION that doesn't mean anything :D (I have been wrong before) lol | ||
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[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
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Shameless
Netherlands349 Posts
Meanwhile SC2 will still be here and probably stronger then now, to me LoL is like the Farmville of e-sports, i'm sorry in advance  | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote: i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. So this means you're against the MULE right? | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
Anyway it's a bit weird to compare games of different genres, so there's no accurate comparison really. | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:43 TheToast wrote: So this means you're against the MULE right? if you are referring to mule drops on tanks, then no. sacrificing is not the same as killing. i am all for sacrificing my men to gain an advantage. i am a dick leader like that. ;-) | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote: i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. You can't deny creeps in LoL and its one of the many things that make it a lot more noob friendly than DotA2 or HoN. Ironic that you bring that particular point up with regards to LoL. | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:34 Tsuki.eu wrote: Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son. The problem with this argument is that LoL pulls more viewers than sc2 at a competitive eSports level. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
The problem for me is that I can only speak to comparisons between RTS and Dota, but this is an LoL thread. My understanding is that Dota and LoL are extremely similar. If any of my assumptions are wrong let me know! I don't know if LoL is a more complex game than Dota, but I never found Dota as difficult as RTS style games like SC2 and WC3. I agree that pulling a strategy off in Dota is made difficult by collective action problems, but at the pro level you find ways to figure that out quickly. You use mics, you listen to each other. At that point, it's really the strength of the strategy overall, just like in SC2. Ability to execute still retainins some impact, but even more so in SC2, I would say, where more apm is required to actually execute the strategy effectively. The exciting (and disorienting) aspect of Dota was that although no single player is spending as much apm as an SC2 player, they collectively use more apm. Despite that, I never got the impression that there were more "moving parts," so to speak, or nuances, in a Dota strategy compared to an SC2 or WC3 strategy. I would say unequivocally that playing SC2 is more difficult for each individual player. In Dota, there are 5 players who have to act simultaneously, but each of them has a limited multitasking burden compared to an SC2 player. At around 10 minutes of game play or before (real time), an SC2 player has to switch quickly between 5+ screens, micro units at some or all of them, and cycle through a set of hotkeys. I always played Zerg in 1v1, I won't comment on whether some races have easier macro mechanics  That said, I think Dota/LoL certainly have enough merit to garner an audience in e-sports. I think that speaks for itself and I have no problem with it, and I agree with what you said about growth being mutually beneficial. However, this: LoL is hurt however, by the lack of professionalism and community involvement among its top tier players. If you've ever listened to a high-level stream, its "HOLY FUCK MY TEAM FUCKING SUCKS YOU FUCKING F-GGOTS N-GGERS OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK!" almost across the board. LoL needs a djWheat or Day9, someone willing to take responsibility for the community and grow the game that way and show some class. The teams need to get more professional as well, m5 is the only one that's really done it. Look at EG or coL compared to ANY LoL team, and it's kinda scary how much Sc2 teams are to, well, BUSINESSES, which is what ANY team really is at the end of the day. Does illustrate some of the factors that make SC2 more advanced as an esport. Now, SC2 obviously benefits from already having an infrastructure consisting of former BW pros. Day9 is a great example. The most important thing imo is that we've adopted the standards set by Korean BW (which is pretty conservative by the way), and that SC has a history as an international esport, on television, in MLG, at the WCG, and especially in Korea. 9 times out of 10, the only thing I say in game in SC2 is "gl gg" and "gg" or "gg wp," and that's because I played BW. That doesn't mean that LoL can't make it to the same point as SC2 or beyond, it just means that currently SC2 is ahead because it got a head start. edits: clarification | ||
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.ImpacT.
United States390 Posts
On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote: i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. LoL doesn't allow you to kill your own units (Denying) though. That's its major difference between LoL and HoN/Dota. | ||
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