EPT[D] Insight into the "Sc2 vs LoL" e-sport debate - Page 4
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
From a purely personal and non-empirical point of view, I think LoL went even farther than SC2 in terms of dumbing down the original product. While both games are leaps and bounds easier than their predecessors, LoL is a far greater offender in reducing the skill cap. SC2 got rid of a lot of the mechanical mundanity of BW, worker rallys, MBS, unlimited army selection, easycast. Some of them make sense to me, like worker rallying and MBS while others, like army selection which should have been something like 24/32 per group and easycast which almost utterly annihilates the skill cap when it comes to spellcasting. Some of the unit designs also are highly flawed, most egregious example being the Colossus and others like Marauder, Roach, Hydra etc. LoL has free moderate cooldown, only back to fountain TP scroll which greatly cuts down on ganking and general mobility options, summoner spells which offer painless escape mechanics, lack of hero's which require creep management, jungling in general, staleness of the laning phase, spamming skills for farming purposes at nearly every phase of the game, lack of variety in laning combos. Even from a purely cosmetic point of view, LoL is to me the most indecipherable of the DoTA-likes, with ridiculously high contrast, cartoony pastels that give it an almost Timmy's First Video Game art style. Skills are mostly bland effects with not that much variation and hero designs are still far too much influenced by WoW, which is a sad thing. Bleh it feels like I'm just ranting at this stage and I'm sure this will just be buried underneath the spam in the thread but its just been on my mind for a while. | ||
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Shameless
Netherlands349 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
Same with BW. I really would like to like it as spectator but I find myself too often trying to figure out where chokes/ramps/high ground is. But that's just my personal taste. If LoL bring viewers and makes esports make mainstream it's a good thing. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
TBH I would enjoy watching FPS games/fighting games more. I'm happy that LoL is a success but its sad that such a game is shadowing other great games that take much more skill. | ||
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ghosthunter
United States414 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:09 Shameless wrote: I would love to see a PPV tournament for LoL, then they truly know where they stand As a note, if they're able to draw an adequate viewer base greater than that of SC2, this would never even have to occur - ad revenue would be greater. I will be interested to see how this whole model develops over time though, as it prevents new viewers. | ||
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Arush
Canada80 Posts
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mell0w
United States102 Posts
StarCraft Community = volatile because it's too focused around looking professional and "mature"; it's a game god damn it Mix the two together and you would have the perfect blend of of community to propagate ESPORTS. Despite what you might find out of here, shit talking is a necessary part of building a healthy community persona. Likewise, being too square and fixed around looking good, forgoing an aspect which has been a part of sports since it's mainstream conception, is toxic on it's own, but still necessary. Neither community gets it yet. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote: That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. In FPS games, much like in RTS games or fighting games, you can be the smartest and most knowledgeable player in the world with world class teammates, but without that fundamental skill set, you're still going to be awful and useless. I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW). Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport. | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
There are 94 LoL characters with 5 unique abilities (including passive) as well as different stats and an extremely large number of viable builds and items. On top of that you pick bans and base your unit composition upon your opponents team. You could make a career out of number crunching just the beginning picks and weighing out odds. To say the game is boring is to say you have a lack of understanding of what makes it so complicated and refuse to make any lengths to understand. I play starcraft 2 at a pretty damn high level but I will get off my high horse and give other gamers credit when they put in their time. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote: That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW). People need to shed this view that esports is some tangible community, specific set of tournaments, or even some controlled industry. Esports is an ambiguous vague term. It's the same with the term "sports". Curling requires much less physical prowess, agility, and strength than say football. But guess what? Curling is still considered a fucking sport. Doesn't matter that I don't watch it, doesn't matter that anyone can do it, there are people who play it competitively and there are professional leagues, and fans who follow those leagues. Whether I or anyone else calls it a sport or not doesn't change a thing. There are people who refer to fishing as a sport. There are even competitive fishing tournaments in the US and Canada. Whether you call that a sport or a sporting activity or anything in between doesn't change that people love it and are willing to compete, watch, and follow competive play. Watch what you want, do what you want. I don't really give a shit if you call your thing an esport or not. Anybody who feels that it's *not* an esport, I have news for you--there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. If you want to, you can scream at the top of your lungs that LoL is not an esport; even if you are right doesn't change the fact that people want to play and watch people play LoL competitively. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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ghosthunter
United States414 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:13 Talin wrote: FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport. I didn't know Justin Bieber was a game to you. At least read the one sentence point in its entirety that you're trying to discredit through a petty analogy. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:07 ghosthunter wrote: You did no better at clearly defining these "random arbitrary definitions" are, and instead just chose to rail against one person's interpretation. Interpretations are open. For me, E-Sports refers more simply to the structure of the game and the presence of a professional scene. Competitive nature, streams and casters, evolving metagame, and the ability for professionals to exist are how I define E-Sports. It's the same as I would define normal sports in terms of legitimacy. So for example: WoW Arena, MOBAs, FPSs, and RTS naturally fall under this category if they meet the requirements. WoW PvE does not. I agree, to say that LoL isn't an esport is plainly wrong in that it doesn't conform to any reasonable definition of esport. The fact that there are teams of players who travel to LoL tournaments, in order to compete and win money makes it an esport. Good luck trying to convince anyone, other than the most hardcore, that one video game qualifies as a legitimate esport and another does not, if both of them fit the criteria in the quote above. And if people try, I wonder what exactly they're trying to accomplish? | ||
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clik
United States319 Posts
I played LoL for a little while however not anywhere near a top level. I got to level 30, played to about 1650 in solo queue with about 450 games played, so my depth of knowledge for the game isn't all that high but it was never a matter of "skill" or which game is more casual than the other with me. I simply couldn't stand the in-game community. They were incredibly rude, junior high level insults on a consistent bases. In addition the game felt cheap to me. The graphics and the way it played just reminded me of a flash game. The cartoony, big boobed, female champions just felt immature, not the mention all the cutesy little fur champs. I think what Riot is doing is a good thing for everyone. I just hope Blizzard can take note and realize there is a lot of people out there that care about Starcraft and its success as an esport as much as Riot realizes with their game. I personally think the whole skill argument is lame. Every genre demands different skill sets. | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
I said problem with this argument, not with eSports | ||
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Orracle
United States314 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:13 Talin wrote: FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport. Thank you! Your definition includes everything that DOTA, etc(at high levels require). I'm assuming you haven't played a moba before though. At high levels it's not a herpa derpa walk around and kill shit and ignore your team. Congrats on using a silly analogy that is no way even correlated with a game. Guess I'm done talking to you. | ||
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2014 Posts
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