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I'm not sure if this will be 100% allowed, but I've seen a ton of the whole "LoL vs Sc2 vs BW" threads in the last week or so, and so I thought that maybe we could have a CIVIL discussion, similar to the "An Elephant in the Room" thread. If anything, maybe this will just stop some of the squabbling going on and people will realize that LoL success does not mean Sc2 failure. It actually means Sc2 GROWTH for the most part.
I think I've got a pretty good perspective and I'm tired of seeing fans on both games (as much as I hate to use this phrase) shitting on eachothers game all day.
I've been ~2100 in LoL, thats top 250-ish. I've also held top 17 in NA for a while back at the end/slightly after the end of the beta in SC2 as VTImpacT.
As a CONSUMER/VIEWER standpoint, I think both games are just about equal. Both have their "boring" phases, that lead up to a climax in the game (mid/lategame in sc2, and lategame and teamfights in LoL) Sc2 casters can provide a lot more in-depth analysis of a game due to their knowledge of the game and that most things in Sc2 have a linear progression (He's going for robo, odds are he's going to get a robo facility and then colossus range and go colossus.) Where-as LoL is a much more dynamic and flowing game, where a team can suddenly shift from playing extremely passively to extremely aggressive whenever they want. Its like Mech being able to get up, run around and act like stimmed Bio and be just as effective. This is REALLY hard on commentators to catch all the action. It's almost impossible to read when someone is randomly going to be aggressive in lane, and things like player thought processes are much harder to analyze than a build in sc2 that will very likely go one way or the other.
LoL is hurt however, by the lack of professionalism and community involvement among its top tier players. If you've ever listened to a high-level stream, its "HOLY FUCK MY TEAM FUCKING SUCKS YOU FUCKING F-GGOTS N-GGERS OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK!" almost across the board. LoL needs a djWheat or Day9, someone willing to take responsibility for the community and grow the game that way and show some class. The teams need to get more professional as well, m5 is the only one that's really done it. Look at EG or coL compared to ANY LoL team, and it's kinda scary how much Sc2 teams are to, well, BUSINESSES, which is what ANY team really is at the end of the day.
I think both have a shot at being an E-Sport, appealing to different audiences. I know that I love both games, but sometimes I get tired of losing 10 games in a row because my teammates just won't come together and do anything and sit there arguing the entire game. For me, sc2 is probably a better fit because its a representation of MY skill and my skill alone, and a head-to-head game will always be better for displaying one players skill. But at the same time, games like Halo and CS:S have always succeeded because its a display of teamskill, and working together with 4 other players is a different kind of skill. Sure LoL may be MUCH easier to play for ONE person. You don't need 300APM and thousands of hours studying the game, but its the coordination factor that's so difficult and that puts it on the same tier as Sc2.
When people attend events like IPL, you're there for the day for the most-part. Personally, I love to watch Sc2 AND LoL. I think both games provide interesting content and I can easily make cases for why they should both be e-sports. I loved watching CS and Halo back in the day because it provided an example as to what people can do when they really pull together. I loved watching Broodwar because there's nothing quite like "PLAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" or "REVO REVO REVO REVO REVO" in the 400apm micro battles. Both games are amazing, and when LoL draws in NEW people to E-sports, at least SOME will enjoy watching BOTH games. LoL doesn't necessarily STEAL people from Sc2. I know it didn't me, I play both right now.
TL;DR - BOTH CAN BE E-SPORTS. There are fans for LoL that hate sc2, fans for Sc2 that hate LoL, but A LOT OF FANS FOR BOTH, LIKE ME AND A BUNCH OF MY FRIENDS.
(If this belongs in Blogs or General, I'm really sorry, and feel free to move it. Probably should be moved to General.)
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I think this is a great thread to have in General.
Form an outside perspective, I'd have to agree with your analysis. It definitely seems like League is more focused on the team aspect of gameplay as opposed to individual skill.
Another point of comparison is the fact that League was released around the same time as two games which could be major competitors, Heroes of Newerth and DotA2. Whereas Starcraft 2's only real competitor in its genre is its predecessor, and even that is only popular in Korea. Perhaps this influences some of the debate?
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I tried watching LOL casting, but didn't liked at all. For me it lacks the strategy and excitement of a sc2 match.
But perhaps is because I don't fully understand LOL, since I haven't played as much as Sc2.
I do think tho, that the growing of LOL will only be good for SC2, since the more people involved with e-sports the more we grow and the more e-sports become validated.
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On March 15 2012 04:08 ropumar wrote:
I tried watching LOL casting, but didn't liked at all. For me it lacks the strategy and excitement of a sc2 match.
But perhaps is because I don't fully understand LOL, since I haven't played as much as Sc2.
I do think tho, that the growing of LOL will only be good for SC2, since the more people involved with e-sports the more we grow and the more e-sports become validated.
I just wish more people took this viewpoint. In other threads, it's been "LoL is a terrible game because of X" or "Sc2 is for toddlers" like, what the hell people. ~_~
How isn't it obvious that what grows the scene at all is beneficial? It's not like there's a finite number of people for the pool to draw from capped at 500,000 or something.
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On March 15 2012 03:58 .ImpacT. wrote:
If anything, maybe this will just stop some of the squabbling going on and people will realize that LoL success does not mean Sc2 failure. It actually means Sc2 GROWTH for the most part.
Even if it doesn't mean growth and would hurth the SC2 scene, what is there to do about it? Flaming people on the internet isn't going to reshape the e-sports world. It's unlikely to even change anyone's mind.
It's a shame the thread in general got so off track. There's a legitimate discussion to be had here about the evolution of esports, and what that means for the future. All this SC2 vs LoL stuff is rediculous.
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Professionalism in LoL is a killing problem for me. I played a lot more LoL then I ever will SC2 because it is easier to pick up and enjoy, but the team aspect is both a blessing and a curse. I suspect the "lower professionalism" casters from SC2 might find the environment there more supportive of their styles, not to say that they haven't found success in SC2 as well.
Casting wise, LoL is also harder to enjoy because of the variety of action on the screen. There are five people fighting with five potential interesting outcomes. I feel that with a more developed casting system, it might be better accomplished (Like, think about the number of angles on a football game they use). Picture in Picture, dedicated cameramen, all of those could greatly improve quality.
I will be attending IPL4, so I'll be sure to check out some of the LoL events in-between bouts of SC2.
All-in-all, good points, well presented and thought out. In reality, there really shouldn't be any hateful competition between SC2 and LoL because they fit different E-sport niches. Between LoL, HoN, and DOTA, however, there is a lot more brooding.
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I don't think making flowers-and-rainbows threads is going to change anyone's mind ultimately. People have different standards. If you dislike hearing them, then opening this discussion again is counter-productive.
For me pesonally it's extremely difficult to appreciate something that doesn't stress multitasking, handspeed, precision, hand-eye coordination, perception, sense of timing or any number of fundamental human skills that exist outside of game/software. To that end, I even appreciate good plays of Super Meat Boy more than any MOBA games.
I don't think you should have a problem with people stating their mind (unless they're being a dick about it, in which case they should probably be banned anyway).
As for what will become e-sports, that has next to nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the money put into it and direction chosen for it by people who provide that money. For all it matters, they can even make Skyrim an e-sport (in fact, didn't WCG recently try just that?).
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I like the post but people have to realise that you don't have to type important words in CAPS LOCK. You can, if you really persist on it, make them bold
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I find LoL a lot less exciting to watch, due to how stale the metagame is, which makes for a really boring early game. You are pretty much forced to have 1 of a small set of champions top, have a jungler, and have a carry/support bottom. In Dota you can have interesting combinations, 2-1-2, 2-2-1, 3-1-1, 2-1-1 + jungle.
Also another point that no one brings up: LoL is patched constantly. You think nerfing ghost snipe damage is crazy, try having a new unit added every two weeks. To me it cheapens the competition with the game changing that much. No one can really master anything since it will be very different a few months from now.
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Hating and bashing on other games does not help the cause of esports at all. Arguing which game is "better" is like debating if football (soccer) or handball is more enjoyable. It is all about personal preferences and likes and dislikes. From that perspective I do not even understand why this whole debate tends to come up again and again.
What I believe to be productive however, is to talk about features LoL has that SC2 does not. This might actually lead to improvements in the end.
After all, this LoL versus SC2 debate is futile. In DotA 2 they will meet their true master. Dota 2 is - even in Beta - better entertainment than SC2 has ever been to me and actually has a good portion of professionalism as well as personalities shaping the community. Oh damn, did I stir up a Dota 2 vs. Rest of the World - debate??? 
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On March 15 2012 04:21 Meovin- wrote:
I like the post but people have to realise that you don't have to type important words in CAPS LOCK. You can, if you really persist on it, make them bold
Good point, I'll edit it right now.
Also,
On March 15 2012 04:24 Iamyournoob wrote:
What I believe to be productive however, is to talk about features LoL has that SC2 does not. This might actually lead to improvements in the end.
Or what Sc2 has to offer instead of LoL. Casting, professionalism, organization are all aspects that I'd say would definitely help LoL to grow.
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Only difference is BW and SC2 are original games, same game really just with a different engine. LoL is just DotA for noobs with different heros and mechanics.
I used to play DotA for 2-3 years, but it got boring after playing 3 games a day. I got bored of LoL after 2 games. Not because of the gameplay but because of the graphics. It looks like a giant cartoon game.
As e-sport games and good consumer products, LoL is better because it free, more accesable and easier to run on a computer.
Sc2 is more professional. LoL is more casual. Dota is the professional version of LoL
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Yeah, I'm really happy if both succeed. But I'll only personally watch SC2, and I'd probs sooner move elsewhere than go to LoL 'cause I don't play/enjoy it.
Just my viewpoint.
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Does LoL have viewers that aren't current/former DOTA players the way BW does (and which SC2 might eventually have too)? I've watched a few games and kind of understand it, but the mechanics that make up the real strategic depth to it are extremely opaque, and especially hard to explain while a cast is live. This is sort of a killing blow to non-player viewership. There's some argument that any video game will have this kind of barrier, but DOTA has the problem in a way that starcraft never has.
former players of ANY kind of DOTA, I mean, not just former War3 dota players
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With LoL becoming so big, there's going to be less money for starcraft players. To keep his LoL section, Against All Authority (aAa) just dropped his entire SC2 line-out. It wasn't good to start off, but it seems there's not enough money in e-sports to have truly competitive teams in several games (unless you are called EG, Dignitas, Mouz or Fanatic).
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I'm not really into LoL but as far from what I've seen it's a much more casual game then sc2 which is fine as their target audience probably doesn't overlap too much. As far as a serious E-sport goes I think sc2 is much better. It's more serious and reaches a higher level of quality due to being singleplayer in my opinion. Sc2 is also the only rts serious gamers consider whereas LoL has the problem of dota2 splitting up the community already a bit.
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I wish VALVe would just make CS2 instead of shitty fucking remakes. CS:S, CS:CZ, CS:GO. Come the fuck on, man. CS 1.6 is the best FPS game of its genre, ever. I'm not afraid to make that statement and people will agree with me. Nothing will come close. I've played many kinds of team games, and it's always the same shit. Bunch of people who think they're better than they're not trying to tell you what to do. Never liked LoL. Was a 1900 player in HoN until i got bored of the genre that is MOBA. However, it is sometimes nice to just watch some pro games. DoTA 2 I hope succeeds. Moba is becoming the new FPS scene it seems. And for me, that is just HEART BREAKING.
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I watched LoL at IEM colgne before SC2 started. As a HoN player i never really liked LoL, but watching it i just found it boring. To me it seemed like every gank failed because they didn't have that many stun abilities and the game took forever to finish (like 50 mins), whereas a s SC2 match takes like 10-30 minutes. The rest is just as OP mentioned IMO. Both have their right to exist as esports. I personally dont like LoL but so many people seem to like it so it surely can be an esports.
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Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son.
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i find LoL incredibly boring to watch as a spectator (most likely because i dont understand the strategies, etc.), but it looks like it would be a fun game to play (i have downloaded it, but have yet to actually play it). i have no problem with sc2 and lol both succeeding as esports. i'll just turn off the stream when LoL starts; no skin off my back.
as for competition between sc2 and LoL, i dont think LoL is concerned at all. they are two different games that will attract different people. LoL should be more worried about DOTA destroying them.
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EPT
