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I'm not sure if this will be 100% allowed, but I've seen a ton of the whole "LoL vs Sc2 vs BW" threads in the last week or so, and so I thought that maybe we could have a CIVIL discussion, similar to the "An Elephant in the Room" thread. If anything, maybe this will just stop some of the squabbling going on and people will realize that LoL success does not mean Sc2 failure. It actually means Sc2 GROWTH for the most part.
I think I've got a pretty good perspective and I'm tired of seeing fans on both games (as much as I hate to use this phrase) shitting on eachothers game all day.
I've been ~2100 in LoL, thats top 250-ish. I've also held top 17 in NA for a while back at the end/slightly after the end of the beta in SC2 as VTImpacT.
As a CONSUMER/VIEWER standpoint, I think both games are just about equal. Both have their "boring" phases, that lead up to a climax in the game (mid/lategame in sc2, and lategame and teamfights in LoL) Sc2 casters can provide a lot more in-depth analysis of a game due to their knowledge of the game and that most things in Sc2 have a linear progression (He's going for robo, odds are he's going to get a robo facility and then colossus range and go colossus.) Where-as LoL is a much more dynamic and flowing game, where a team can suddenly shift from playing extremely passively to extremely aggressive whenever they want. Its like Mech being able to get up, run around and act like stimmed Bio and be just as effective. This is REALLY hard on commentators to catch all the action. It's almost impossible to read when someone is randomly going to be aggressive in lane, and things like player thought processes are much harder to analyze than a build in sc2 that will very likely go one way or the other.
LoL is hurt however, by the lack of professionalism and community involvement among its top tier players. If you've ever listened to a high-level stream, its "HOLY FUCK MY TEAM FUCKING SUCKS YOU FUCKING F-GGOTS N-GGERS OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK!" almost across the board. LoL needs a djWheat or Day9, someone willing to take responsibility for the community and grow the game that way and show some class. The teams need to get more professional as well, m5 is the only one that's really done it. Look at EG or coL compared to ANY LoL team, and it's kinda scary how much Sc2 teams are to, well, BUSINESSES, which is what ANY team really is at the end of the day.
I think both have a shot at being an E-Sport, appealing to different audiences. I know that I love both games, but sometimes I get tired of losing 10 games in a row because my teammates just won't come together and do anything and sit there arguing the entire game. For me, sc2 is probably a better fit because its a representation of MY skill and my skill alone, and a head-to-head game will always be better for displaying one players skill. But at the same time, games like Halo and CS:S have always succeeded because its a display of teamskill, and working together with 4 other players is a different kind of skill. Sure LoL may be MUCH easier to play for ONE person. You don't need 300APM and thousands of hours studying the game, but its the coordination factor that's so difficult and that puts it on the same tier as Sc2.
When people attend events like IPL, you're there for the day for the most-part. Personally, I love to watch Sc2 AND LoL. I think both games provide interesting content and I can easily make cases for why they should both be e-sports. I loved watching CS and Halo back in the day because it provided an example as to what people can do when they really pull together. I loved watching Broodwar because there's nothing quite like "PLAGUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" or "REVO REVO REVO REVO REVO" in the 400apm micro battles. Both games are amazing, and when LoL draws in NEW people to E-sports, at least SOME will enjoy watching BOTH games. LoL doesn't necessarily STEAL people from Sc2. I know it didn't me, I play both right now.
TL;DR - BOTH CAN BE E-SPORTS. There are fans for LoL that hate sc2, fans for Sc2 that hate LoL, but A LOT OF FANS FOR BOTH, LIKE ME AND A BUNCH OF MY FRIENDS.
(If this belongs in Blogs or General, I'm really sorry, and feel free to move it. Probably should be moved to General.)
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I think this is a great thread to have in General.
Form an outside perspective, I'd have to agree with your analysis. It definitely seems like League is more focused on the team aspect of gameplay as opposed to individual skill.
Another point of comparison is the fact that League was released around the same time as two games which could be major competitors, Heroes of Newerth and DotA2. Whereas Starcraft 2's only real competitor in its genre is its predecessor, and even that is only popular in Korea. Perhaps this influences some of the debate?
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I tried watching LOL casting, but didn't liked at all. For me it lacks the strategy and excitement of a sc2 match.
But perhaps is because I don't fully understand LOL, since I haven't played as much as Sc2.
I do think tho, that the growing of LOL will only be good for SC2, since the more people involved with e-sports the more we grow and the more e-sports become validated.
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On March 15 2012 04:08 ropumar wrote:
I tried watching LOL casting, but didn't liked at all. For me it lacks the strategy and excitement of a sc2 match.
But perhaps is because I don't fully understand LOL, since I haven't played as much as Sc2.
I do think tho, that the growing of LOL will only be good for SC2, since the more people involved with e-sports the more we grow and the more e-sports become validated.
I just wish more people took this viewpoint. In other threads, it's been "LoL is a terrible game because of X" or "Sc2 is for toddlers" like, what the hell people. ~_~
How isn't it obvious that what grows the scene at all is beneficial? It's not like there's a finite number of people for the pool to draw from capped at 500,000 or something.
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On March 15 2012 03:58 .ImpacT. wrote:
If anything, maybe this will just stop some of the squabbling going on and people will realize that LoL success does not mean Sc2 failure. It actually means Sc2 GROWTH for the most part.
Even if it doesn't mean growth and would hurth the SC2 scene, what is there to do about it? Flaming people on the internet isn't going to reshape the e-sports world. It's unlikely to even change anyone's mind.
It's a shame the thread in general got so off track. There's a legitimate discussion to be had here about the evolution of esports, and what that means for the future. All this SC2 vs LoL stuff is rediculous.
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Professionalism in LoL is a killing problem for me. I played a lot more LoL then I ever will SC2 because it is easier to pick up and enjoy, but the team aspect is both a blessing and a curse. I suspect the "lower professionalism" casters from SC2 might find the environment there more supportive of their styles, not to say that they haven't found success in SC2 as well.
Casting wise, LoL is also harder to enjoy because of the variety of action on the screen. There are five people fighting with five potential interesting outcomes. I feel that with a more developed casting system, it might be better accomplished (Like, think about the number of angles on a football game they use). Picture in Picture, dedicated cameramen, all of those could greatly improve quality.
I will be attending IPL4, so I'll be sure to check out some of the LoL events in-between bouts of SC2.
All-in-all, good points, well presented and thought out. In reality, there really shouldn't be any hateful competition between SC2 and LoL because they fit different E-sport niches. Between LoL, HoN, and DOTA, however, there is a lot more brooding.
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I don't think making flowers-and-rainbows threads is going to change anyone's mind ultimately. People have different standards. If you dislike hearing them, then opening this discussion again is counter-productive.
For me pesonally it's extremely difficult to appreciate something that doesn't stress multitasking, handspeed, precision, hand-eye coordination, perception, sense of timing or any number of fundamental human skills that exist outside of game/software. To that end, I even appreciate good plays of Super Meat Boy more than any MOBA games.
I don't think you should have a problem with people stating their mind (unless they're being a dick about it, in which case they should probably be banned anyway).
As for what will become e-sports, that has next to nothing to do with the game itself and everything to do with the money put into it and direction chosen for it by people who provide that money. For all it matters, they can even make Skyrim an e-sport (in fact, didn't WCG recently try just that?).
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I like the post but people have to realise that you don't have to type important words in CAPS LOCK. You can, if you really persist on it, make them bold
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I find LoL a lot less exciting to watch, due to how stale the metagame is, which makes for a really boring early game. You are pretty much forced to have 1 of a small set of champions top, have a jungler, and have a carry/support bottom. In Dota you can have interesting combinations, 2-1-2, 2-2-1, 3-1-1, 2-1-1 + jungle.
Also another point that no one brings up: LoL is patched constantly. You think nerfing ghost snipe damage is crazy, try having a new unit added every two weeks. To me it cheapens the competition with the game changing that much. No one can really master anything since it will be very different a few months from now.
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Hating and bashing on other games does not help the cause of esports at all. Arguing which game is "better" is like debating if football (soccer) or handball is more enjoyable. It is all about personal preferences and likes and dislikes. From that perspective I do not even understand why this whole debate tends to come up again and again.
What I believe to be productive however, is to talk about features LoL has that SC2 does not. This might actually lead to improvements in the end.
After all, this LoL versus SC2 debate is futile. In DotA 2 they will meet their true master. Dota 2 is - even in Beta - better entertainment than SC2 has ever been to me and actually has a good portion of professionalism as well as personalities shaping the community. Oh damn, did I stir up a Dota 2 vs. Rest of the World - debate??? 
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On March 15 2012 04:21 Meovin- wrote:
I like the post but people have to realise that you don't have to type important words in CAPS LOCK. You can, if you really persist on it, make them bold
Good point, I'll edit it right now.
Also,
On March 15 2012 04:24 Iamyournoob wrote:
What I believe to be productive however, is to talk about features LoL has that SC2 does not. This might actually lead to improvements in the end.
Or what Sc2 has to offer instead of LoL. Casting, professionalism, organization are all aspects that I'd say would definitely help LoL to grow.
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Only difference is BW and SC2 are original games, same game really just with a different engine. LoL is just DotA for noobs with different heros and mechanics.
I used to play DotA for 2-3 years, but it got boring after playing 3 games a day. I got bored of LoL after 2 games. Not because of the gameplay but because of the graphics. It looks like a giant cartoon game.
As e-sport games and good consumer products, LoL is better because it free, more accesable and easier to run on a computer.
Sc2 is more professional. LoL is more casual. Dota is the professional version of LoL
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Yeah, I'm really happy if both succeed. But I'll only personally watch SC2, and I'd probs sooner move elsewhere than go to LoL 'cause I don't play/enjoy it.
Just my viewpoint.
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Does LoL have viewers that aren't current/former DOTA players the way BW does (and which SC2 might eventually have too)? I've watched a few games and kind of understand it, but the mechanics that make up the real strategic depth to it are extremely opaque, and especially hard to explain while a cast is live. This is sort of a killing blow to non-player viewership. There's some argument that any video game will have this kind of barrier, but DOTA has the problem in a way that starcraft never has.
former players of ANY kind of DOTA, I mean, not just former War3 dota players
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With LoL becoming so big, there's going to be less money for starcraft players. To keep his LoL section, Against All Authority (aAa) just dropped his entire SC2 line-out. It wasn't good to start off, but it seems there's not enough money in e-sports to have truly competitive teams in several games (unless you are called EG, Dignitas, Mouz or Fanatic).
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I'm not really into LoL but as far from what I've seen it's a much more casual game then sc2 which is fine as their target audience probably doesn't overlap too much. As far as a serious E-sport goes I think sc2 is much better. It's more serious and reaches a higher level of quality due to being singleplayer in my opinion. Sc2 is also the only rts serious gamers consider whereas LoL has the problem of dota2 splitting up the community already a bit.
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I wish VALVe would just make CS2 instead of shitty fucking remakes. CS:S, CS:CZ, CS:GO. Come the fuck on, man. CS 1.6 is the best FPS game of its genre, ever. I'm not afraid to make that statement and people will agree with me. Nothing will come close. I've played many kinds of team games, and it's always the same shit. Bunch of people who think they're better than they're not trying to tell you what to do. Never liked LoL. Was a 1900 player in HoN until i got bored of the genre that is MOBA. However, it is sometimes nice to just watch some pro games. DoTA 2 I hope succeeds. Moba is becoming the new FPS scene it seems. And for me, that is just HEART BREAKING.
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I watched LoL at IEM colgne before SC2 started. As a HoN player i never really liked LoL, but watching it i just found it boring. To me it seemed like every gank failed because they didn't have that many stun abilities and the game took forever to finish (like 50 mins), whereas a s SC2 match takes like 10-30 minutes. The rest is just as OP mentioned IMO. Both have their right to exist as esports. I personally dont like LoL but so many people seem to like it so it surely can be an esports.
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Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son.
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i find LoL incredibly boring to watch as a spectator (most likely because i dont understand the strategies, etc.), but it looks like it would be a fun game to play (i have downloaded it, but have yet to actually play it). i have no problem with sc2 and lol both succeeding as esports. i'll just turn off the stream when LoL starts; no skin off my back.
as for competition between sc2 and LoL, i dont think LoL is concerned at all. they are two different games that will attract different people. LoL should be more worried about DOTA destroying them.
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I have played enough LoL to know that I don't like it, at all. I have tried watching games, but it bores me, but I can see the mass appeal because it is relatively simple game to get the base concepts of. I prefer SC2 for the complexity of the game, and for someone who really understands it, I feel that it is the most rewarding.
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What I find so dull about LoL is; when a team gets an advantage they just start snowballing, but really slowly. In SC2 when you someone gains an advantage they usually try to capitalize upon it, resulting in exciting changes in the game, and you´ll see if the player manages to come back or dies.
This happens really fast, in LoL when a team gets behind, the game feels so one sided, but the winning team can´t just win, they have to keep farming and doing ganks while the other team turtles, then after around 20-30 boring minutes the game ends. Sure people have different opinions, but watching LoL is boring for me.
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Based on my experience, LoL doesn't seem like it has a lot of potential. My group of friends is split into LoL players and SC2 players. We'll get together for BarCrafts and to watch various tournaments. The LoL players enjoy watching high level SC2 play, and the SC2 players don't give a shit about LoL. Except that the LoL players don't give a shit about watching LoL either, they're constantly bitching about how bad the casters are compared to Tastosis, and how boring the game is to watch.
I realize not everyone feels this way, but I hope that it means that SC2 has appeal to non-players, which is something it needs if it's going to alst as an ESPORT.
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Czech Republic1860 Posts
I dislike LoL because of the new champions, once you learn all the units in SC2, you can at worst look at what new uses players came up with since the last time. LoL has bunch of new champions which I've never seen before. It also seems to have really low comeback potential, maybe it's part of it maturing, but I tune into an odd game during big championships and it's always one side getting gank or cs advantage and riding it until the end. I've played a lot less games of Dota 2, but I watched the finals of Defense for 5 hours straight because the game was really exciting, though Tobi might be a part of that, I fall asleep during LoL casts.
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One thing I've been noticing about LoL is it seems very stagnant. Like you always have One top one mid two bot AP mid AD bot(I think it's these) in all the games I've watched. I can't say I follow it that much so is this just a phase or is it just how the game is played? If the latter do people think this stagnation will harm it or do nothing in the long run?
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I enjoy that the LoL eSport is growing because it is on a f2p system that isn't pay2win at the levels of competition where it'd matter for a non progamer. It'll allow a huge influx of people to just look at the game as more of a sport and less of a freetime filler. It also opens up another multidimensional game to eSports (whereas most of the FPSs are far from casual playing in concept, MOBA and RTS players idolize the pros at even enthusiast levels of play). SC2 will be the king of the indivual game moving onward, unless another huge title takes its place as it stands, LoL will stand in place for DotA2 or be the king of MOBA
itself and be the representative of the team game. Team Leagues in SC2 are awesome but it comes down to selection of the right individuals rather than the propogation of the individual skills into team skills directly.
That said, I find that shooters should fill this role better, but they are all so "tweaky" in nature that it is all down to execution. A huge advantage isn't gained by being well protected and seeing someone in the open unless you can kill them 100% of the time. The person in the open has a much higher chance of saving his own ass in that game than getting way behind in an SC2 match or from being ganked in MOBA games. If MOBA games had less "startup" time if all players decided to go AFK farm mode via ways to abuse this early passivity or speeding up the process, it would earn a much higher entertaining value to watch streams or competitive events BECAUSE in SC2 a fast expand can be responded to with an allin or a FE on its own, in which the "afk expo mode" finishes within three minutes and there is scouting that needs to be done by both players and analysis of their motives into the mid game. Even in TvT there aren't big flashy attacks post midgame timings but there is always interesting scouting, positioning, expanding, and dropping to keep the entertainment value high in both FP mode (streams) and obs mode (casted).
In the end LoL will be more popular because of the F2P model which attracts exponentially more players (I tried LoL because it was free and a lot of people tried it, I tried SC2 because I wanted a strategy game with a deep dynamic and was willing to shell out for it at the time. SC2 required a search to try, LoL kind of falls into your lap). I will always think SC2 and most RTS will have more depth because of the amount of exerted control a player has to be at the top of the top over every single thing from Simcity, to scouting, to posturing, to spending money, to decide to 2base allin, 1 base allin, timing attack, afk macro mode, etc from game to game. Mobas lack the depth in choosing the optimal way to win, as it is usually afk farm mode for 20 minutes in LoL and sometimes longer. A full game of SC2 could have transpired in that time with both major and minor engagements, analysis of the information both players have of each other etc.
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i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games.
edit: this has been explained to me and i was confused. ignore my ignorant post. =D
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Idk what is wrong with SC2 people (mostly on TL). They say they love esports, and then post shit about LoL being popular. In that case, no. You love SC2/BW or whatever. As far as I'm concerned, any video game getting played and broadcaster for money is really, really cool.
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This isn't a discussion, this has already turned into a "LOL SUCKS AND IS FOR CASUALS" thread. As much as I like Sc2 over LoL, nothing good can come out of this thread.
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The problem is the community i feel. The "moba" Community has always been assholes every single time I have ever played a MOBA game. SC2 is more accepting in most cases. We help each other because we want to. Me and people in Las Vegas hold a practice session almost every night. The reason we all want to get better we all obs the game and in a very NICE way we tell each other tips. We have the friendship we need to try and get us better. We dont see that in the MOBA community in any game.. dota2 LoL or HON.
Its the people that play the game. in SC2 you have the trolls the dicks and so forth, but you have more helpful people then in the other games. My point is if LoL and Moba games want esports to take them serious the community has to show itself they want to be taken serious. For the most part the SC2 fans that hate any LoL game its the fact we dont like the way most players act in them. So we are turned off right away from it.
That is just my opinion on why so much flame for the LoL community. I still don't like LoL i still don't think it will be taken serious as a Esports game. AS I SAID MY OPINION that doesn't mean anything :D (I have been wrong before) lol
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I still dont get why there are gamers starting flame and hate wars about each others game... both groups have one aim, which is growth of eSports. So why arent we gathering the powers of several diciplins (games) and start to develop a well rounded, society accepted and professional enviroment of gaming which could be compared to any professional sports... Well time has passed and I think by now we are finally on the right journey, but it took some time.
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I think LoL is the flavor of this moment when it comes to free to play games, I bet all my money that once a new flavor arrives all these kids will jump onto the next big thing in no time, until another free thing comes a long of course.
Meanwhile SC2 will still be here and probably stronger then now, to me LoL is like the Farmville of e-sports, i'm sorry in advance 
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On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games.
So this means you're against the MULE right?
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LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo. Dota 2 & HoN have more potential, don't like MOBA games myself, but I can see why people would like them.
Anyway it's a bit weird to compare games of different genres, so there's no accurate comparison really.
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Decent post... but I do have one major problem with it... You called the Elephant in the room thread civil? That shit was far from civil lol. That was about as bad as threads get on TL. The only worse ones are balance threads.
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On March 15 2012 04:43 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. So this means you're against the MULE right?
if you are referring to mule drops on tanks, then no. sacrificing is not the same as killing. i am all for sacrificing my men to gain an advantage. i am a dick leader like that. ;-)
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On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games.
You can't deny creeps in LoL and its one of the many things that make it a lot more noob friendly than DotA2 or HoN. Ironic that you bring that particular point up with regards to LoL.
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On March 15 2012 04:34 Tsuki.eu wrote:
Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son.
The problem with this argument is that LoL pulls more viewers than sc2 at a competitive eSports level.
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My experience is in BW, SC2, and WC3:FT Dota and I have to say that I disagree with your post, at least in part.
The problem for me is that I can only speak to comparisons between RTS and Dota, but this is an LoL thread. My understanding is that Dota and LoL are extremely similar. If any of my assumptions are wrong let me know!
I don't know if LoL is a more complex game than Dota, but I never found Dota as difficult as RTS style games like SC2 and WC3. I agree that pulling a strategy off in Dota is made difficult by collective action problems, but at the pro level you find ways to figure that out quickly. You use mics, you listen to each other.
At that point, it's really the strength of the strategy overall, just like in SC2. Ability to execute still retainins some impact, but even more so in SC2, I would say, where more apm is required to actually execute the strategy effectively. The exciting (and disorienting) aspect of Dota was that although no single player is spending as much apm as an SC2 player, they collectively use more apm.
Despite that, I never got the impression that there were more "moving parts," so to speak, or nuances, in a Dota strategy compared to an SC2 or WC3 strategy. I would say unequivocally that playing SC2 is more difficult for each individual player. In Dota, there are 5 players who have to act simultaneously, but each of them has a limited multitasking burden compared to an SC2 player. At around 10 minutes of game play or before (real time), an SC2 player has to switch quickly between 5+ screens, micro units at some or all of them, and cycle through a set of hotkeys. I always played Zerg in 1v1, I won't comment on whether some races have easier macro mechanics 
That said, I think Dota/LoL certainly have enough merit to garner an audience in e-sports. I think that speaks for itself and I have no problem with it, and I agree with what you said about growth being mutually beneficial. However, this:
LoL is hurt however, by the lack of professionalism and community involvement among its top tier players. If you've ever listened to a high-level stream, its "HOLY FUCK MY TEAM FUCKING SUCKS YOU FUCKING F-GGOTS N-GGERS OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK!" almost across the board. LoL needs a djWheat or Day9, someone willing to take responsibility for the community and grow the game that way and show some class. The teams need to get more professional as well, m5 is the only one that's really done it. Look at EG or coL compared to ANY LoL team, and it's kinda scary how much Sc2 teams are to, well, BUSINESSES, which is what ANY team really is at the end of the day.
Does illustrate some of the factors that make SC2 more advanced as an esport. Now, SC2 obviously benefits from already having an infrastructure consisting of former BW pros. Day9 is a great example. The most important thing imo is that we've adopted the standards set by Korean BW (which is pretty conservative by the way), and that SC has a history as an international esport, on television, in MLG, at the WCG, and especially in Korea. 9 times out of 10, the only thing I say in game in SC2 is "gl gg" and "gg" or "gg wp," and that's because I played BW.
That doesn't mean that LoL can't make it to the same point as SC2 or beyond, it just means that currently SC2 is ahead because it got a head start.
edits: clarification
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On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games.
LoL doesn't allow you to kill your own units (Denying) though. That's its major difference between LoL and HoN/Dota.
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On March 15 2012 04:47 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. You can't deny creeps in LoL and its one of the many things that make it a lot more noob friendly than DotA2 or HoN. Ironic that you bring that particular point up with regards to LoL.
im not aware of the exact terminology, but you are saying you dont get experience from killing your own dudes in LoL? I guess that is an issue I have with the other games then and not LoL. i dont know why it would make the game more "expert" to allow players to kill their own units to get experience, but i can see why it would make more sense if you can kill your own units to prevent the other team from getting experience. like i said, i have only watched some and not actually played.
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Broodwar is better.
JK... JK...
LoL is casual, so what? I played 5 years DotA in a league and I miss the good ol' times. LoL gives everyone a decent chance to have success if they want it. Why not? If anyone wants to play MW3 I won't shit on them but hell... I don't need to respect them either. LoL progamers... WoW progamers... MW progamers... Age of Casual, I'm going to be pro in Dwarf Fortress. See you bitches.
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I don't really care about LoL's success. However if LoL pros start acting like they are the most skilled players in the universe I will have problems.
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On March 15 2012 04:11 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 03:58 .ImpacT. wrote:
If anything, maybe this will just stop some of the squabbling going on and people will realize that LoL success does not mean Sc2 failure. It actually means Sc2 GROWTH for the most part. Even if it doesn't mean growth and would hurth the SC2 scene, what is there to do about it? Flaming people on the internet isn't going to reshape the e-sports world. It's unlikely to even change anyone's mind. It's a shame the thread in general got so off track. There's a legitimate discussion to be had here about the evolution of esports, and what that means for the future. All this SC2 vs LoL stuff is rediculous.
I 100% agree with you. People will continue to watch SC2/LOL regardless of the BM that goes on. It is the equivalent of some local basketball game at the park, where each team starts spewing bullshit at each other. No one will walk by and say, "Got damn dingers, I wont be watching the NBA anymore."
Now is this bad language and bm on a casters part acceptable in per-say at a match at IPL 4? It depends. I'm sure the majority of parents wouldn't let their kids(6-12ish) watch the tournament if the casters vocabulary included swear words. Which raises the question, who is the target audience of SC2? I'm still not sure at this point. You have people on SOTG encouraging underage drinking, spewing swear words, etc, but these same people are telling everyone to stop the negative image and to help support "eSports".
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On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo
As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate.
Its like if someone was talking about how great Franzia is, a wine connoisseur would probably get mad.
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On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate.
Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers?
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I don't have a grudge against MOBA games as I played them (mainly Dota, only looked into LoL because some buddies played it) a lot, but from a spectator point of view I think both LoL and Dota are pretty bad compared to BW and SC2. For me all the MOBA games are practically like WoW PvP with a bit better balance. They are nice and easy to play, they have depth (aka there is a learning curve), there is strategy involved, its mainly about positioning, timing and a lot about teamplay, but in the end its a pretty bad experience for the viewer because you never get to see even half of the action and/or skill involved, because there are 10 individual players who all do their things, especially during the laning phase.
I know a lot of people like to watch LoL/Dota and thats nice. I personally don't enjoy it that much.
Also the SC2 community is just the best.
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On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers?
No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with.
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The question which game is the best related to the term eSport... isd still answered with BW in my opinion. There is not one single game which can be compared to BW's perfection. There is no other game which rewards your skill like BW.
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On March 15 2012 04:52 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:47 Klonere wrote:On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. You can't deny creeps in LoL and its one of the many things that make it a lot more noob friendly than DotA2 or HoN. Ironic that you bring that particular point up with regards to LoL. im not aware of the exact terminology, but you are saying you dont get experience from killing your own dudes in LoL? I guess that is an issue I have with the other games then and not LoL. i dont know why it would make the game more "expert" to allow players to kill their own units to get experience, but i can see why it would make more sense if you can kill your own units to prevent the other team from getting experience. like i said, i have only watched some and not actually played.
Denying is the word people use for that
And it denies some gold/exp from the opponents for killing your own unit (which LoL doesn't have) to control the lane better (so you get more exp/gold than your opponent whoever gets the last hits right)
As for SC2 vs LoL,
I'll definitely support SC2 more than LoL honestly
(Note: I was a HoN player until S2 started screwing around... or rather I started in beta and then right when SC2 came out I went to that, and SC2 started screwing around)
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On March 15 2012 04:47 SirPsychoMantis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:34 Tsuki.eu wrote:
Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son.
The problem with this argument is that LoL pulls more viewers than sc2 at a competitive eSports level.
That is not a problem imo.
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Want nothing to do with MOBA games but their everywhere! So annoying.
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On March 15 2012 04:47 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:43 TheToast wrote:On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. So this means you're against the MULE right? if you are referring to mule drops on tanks, then no. sacrificing is not the same as killing. i am all for sacrificing my men to gain an advantage. i am a dick leader like that. ;-)
Actually I was referring to late game situations where Terran can rely entirely on Mules for mining and suiciding SCVs can grant a supply advantage.
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I have to agree with the op, I play both and watch both. I still prefer starcraft 2 though, just because of this doesnt mean i hate lol. I do have to agree with the op when he says that lol could learn from the sc community and become more professional.
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On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with.
So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it?
How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said?
Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them.
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On March 15 2012 05:01 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:47 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 15 2012 04:43 TheToast wrote:On March 15 2012 04:40 dAPhREAk wrote:
i just realized i forgot to mention my biggest criticism of LoL. a game should not allow you to benefit from killing your own dudes. i've never understood that about any of the DOTA, LOL, HON games. So this means you're against the MULE right? if you are referring to mule drops on tanks, then no. sacrificing is not the same as killing. i am all for sacrificing my men to gain an advantage. i am a dick leader like that. ;-) Actually I was referring to late game situations where Terran can rely entirely on Mules for mining and suiciding SCVs can grant a supply advantage.
yeah, thats just another way i can be a dick leader. ;-) but i dont have a problem with people suiciding their troops for an advantage, but i would have a problem if you can kill your scvs and get minerals.
i am learning that this apparently has nothing to do with LoL though; its just related to DOTA/HoN apparently.
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justin bieber is the greatest esport that is all
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On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them.
That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW).
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sc players probably think that every game is casual instead of sc wich is so wrong
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On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them.
You did no better at clearly defining these "random arbitrary definitions" are, and instead just chose to rail against one person's interpretation.
Interpretations are open. For me, E-Sports refers more simply to the structure of the game and the presence of a professional scene.
Competitive nature, streams and casters, evolving metagame, and the ability for professionals to exist are how I define E-Sports.
It's the same as I would define normal sports in terms of legitimacy.
So for example: WoW Arena, MOBAs, FPSs, and RTS naturally fall under this category if they meet the requirements. WoW PvE does not.
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LoL is definitely an eSport, but that doesn't mean it's a strategically deep game with a high skill ceiling, like Sc2 or BW. Hell, even DotA 2 is lightyears ahead of LoL when it comes to the learning curve.
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I think my main issue with LoL as a competitive game is the fact that Riot has actively patched the game to make it easier (jungling change is something that comes to mind). I don't think Blizz has made any significant change in SC2 since its release to make it easier in any quantitative way.
From a purely personal and non-empirical point of view, I think LoL went even farther than SC2 in terms of dumbing down the original product. While both games are leaps and bounds easier than their predecessors, LoL is a far greater offender in reducing the skill cap. SC2 got rid of a lot of the mechanical mundanity of BW, worker rallys, MBS, unlimited army selection, easycast. Some of them make sense to me, like worker rallying and MBS while others, like army selection which should have been something like 24/32 per group and easycast which almost utterly annihilates the skill cap when it comes to spellcasting. Some of the unit designs also are highly flawed, most egregious example being the Colossus and others like Marauder, Roach, Hydra etc.
LoL has free moderate cooldown, only back to fountain TP scroll which greatly cuts down on ganking and general mobility options, summoner spells which offer painless escape mechanics, lack of hero's which require creep management, jungling in general, staleness of the laning phase, spamming skills for farming purposes at nearly every phase of the game, lack of variety in laning combos. Even from a purely cosmetic point of view, LoL is to me the most indecipherable of the DoTA-likes, with ridiculously high contrast, cartoony pastels that give it an almost Timmy's First Video Game art style. Skills are mostly bland effects with not that much variation and hero designs are still far too much influenced by WoW, which is a sad thing.
Bleh it feels like I'm just ranting at this stage and I'm sure this will just be buried underneath the spam in the thread but its just been on my mind for a while.
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I would love to see a PPV tournament for LoL, then they truly know where they stand
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LoL graphics are just too horrible for my taste. I don't follow the moba scene but sometimes watch some tournaments. Dota2 looks really awesome compared to LoL.
Same with BW. I really would like to like it as spectator but I find myself too often trying to figure out where chokes/ramps/high ground is.
But that's just my personal taste. If LoL bring viewers and makes esports make mainstream it's a good thing.
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I'm not a moba person but a lot of hardcore moba people I've heard from say that LoL is a joke in comparison because it is too easy and lacks skill in comparison to dota or hon. This lets a massive amount of players who do not want to put in effort to enjoy the game and its free. TBH i really don't bother with Mobas because they are soo repetitive and I can't get into something that is repititive w/o unpredictability. In sc2 there lots of WTF moments where some players may or may not comeback or someone cheeses. There just so many different variables in sc2 which makes it more exciting and of course it came from the greatest competitive game BW and I am bw biased.
TBH I would enjoy watching FPS games/fighting games more. I'm happy that LoL is a success but its sad that such a game is shadowing other great games that take much more skill.
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On March 15 2012 05:09 Shameless wrote:I would love to see a PPV tournament for LoL, then they truly know where they stand
As a note, if they're able to draw an adequate viewer base greater than that of SC2, this would never even have to occur - ad revenue would be greater.
I will be interested to see how this whole model develops over time though, as it prevents new viewers.
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Honestly i like both games but i prefer Sc2 for the community and the maturity of it and think the skillcap is way higher and i always prefered HoN in tearm of skill jsut think its more balanced in general to have played all those moba games even dota back in the day! It brigns back good memories with my friends. But right now what Sc2 really lacks is the social aspect honestly (subtile message to blizzard right here )
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LoL Community = volatile because of it's libertine and over-the-top abusive mannerisms
StarCraft Community = volatile because it's too focused around looking professional and "mature"; it's a game god damn it
Mix the two together and you would have the perfect blend of of community to propagate ESPORTS. Despite what you might find out of here, shit talking is a necessary part of building a healthy community persona. Likewise, being too square and fixed around looking good, forgoing an aspect which has been a part of sports since it's mainstream conception, is toxic on it's own, but still necessary.
Neither community gets it yet.
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LoL is the casual friendly version of DOTA. They don't hide that fact, they actually promote it. What is there really to discuss?
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On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games?
FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. In FPS games, much like in RTS games or fighting games, you can be the smartest and most knowledgeable player in the world with world class teammates, but without that fundamental skill set, you're still going to be awful and useless.
I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW).
Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport.
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Almost every video game has an infinite skill cap, some just appear higher then others. LoL has it's place and to anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't fully understand competitive sports. I could spend a life time learning either starcraft 2 or LoL and still find small nuances that help my play, every single click ever millisecond that goes by is something that could be improved upon.
There are 94 LoL characters with 5 unique abilities (including passive) as well as different stats and an extremely large number of viable builds and items. On top of that you pick bans and base your unit composition upon your opponents team. You could make a career out of number crunching just the beginning picks and weighing out odds. To say the game is boring is to say you have a lack of understanding of what makes it so complicated and refuse to make any lengths to understand.
I play starcraft 2 at a pretty damn high level but I will get off my high horse and give other gamers credit when they put in their time.
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On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW).
People need to shed this view that esports is some tangible community, specific set of tournaments, or even some controlled industry. Esports is an ambiguous vague term.
It's the same with the term "sports". Curling requires much less physical prowess, agility, and strength than say football. But guess what? Curling is still considered a fucking sport. Doesn't matter that I don't watch it, doesn't matter that anyone can do it, there are people who play it competitively and there are professional leagues, and fans who follow those leagues. Whether I or anyone else calls it a sport or not doesn't change a thing. There are people who refer to fishing as a sport. There are even competitive fishing tournaments in the US and Canada. Whether you call that a sport or a sporting activity or anything in between doesn't change that people love it and are willing to compete, watch, and follow competive play.
Watch what you want, do what you want. I don't really give a shit if you call your thing an esport or not. Anybody who feels that it's *not* an esport, I have news for you--there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. If you want to, you can scream at the top of your lungs that LoL is not an esport; even if you are right doesn't change the fact that people want to play and watch people play LoL competitively.
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I don't think it's possible to have a civil discussion on that topic on a site where eSports is largely treated as a pseudonym for Starcraft 2. People will like what they like.
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On March 15 2012 05:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. Show nested quote +I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW). Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport.
I didn't know Justin Bieber was a game to you. At least read the one sentence point in its entirety that you're trying to discredit through a petty analogy.
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On March 15 2012 05:07 ghosthunter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. You did no better at clearly defining these "random arbitrary definitions" are, and instead just chose to rail against one person's interpretation. Interpretations are open. For me, E-Sports refers more simply to the structure of the game and the presence of a professional scene. Competitive nature, streams and casters, evolving metagame, and the ability for professionals to exist are how I define E-Sports. It's the same as I would define normal sports in terms of legitimacy. So for example: WoW Arena, MOBAs, FPSs, and RTS naturally fall under this category if they meet the requirements. WoW PvE does not.
I agree, to say that LoL isn't an esport is plainly wrong in that it doesn't conform to any reasonable definition of esport.
The fact that there are teams of players who travel to LoL tournaments, in order to compete and win money makes it an esport. Good luck trying to convince anyone, other than the most hardcore, that one video game qualifies as a legitimate esport and another does not, if both of them fit the criteria in the quote above.
And if people try, I wonder what exactly they're trying to accomplish?
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Of course you're going to get a lot of BW and SC2 bias on Team Liquid. It is after all a community site for Starcraft. When people throw out what is essentially "LoL is better than you" comments on a site like this, Starcraft fans are going to bite back. It's like if someone went to a Quake site and said Unreal Tournament is bigger and better than Quake.
I played LoL for a little while however not anywhere near a top level. I got to level 30, played to about 1650 in solo queue with about 450 games played, so my depth of knowledge for the game isn't all that high but it was never a matter of "skill" or which game is more casual than the other with me. I simply couldn't stand the in-game community. They were incredibly rude, junior high level insults on a consistent bases. In addition the game felt cheap to me. The graphics and the way it played just reminded me of a flash game. The cartoony, big boobed, female champions just felt immature, not the mention all the cutesy little fur champs.
I think what Riot is doing is a good thing for everyone. I just hope Blizzard can take note and realize there is a lot of people out there that care about Starcraft and its success as an esport as much as Riot realizes with their game. I personally think the whole skill argument is lame. Every genre demands different skill sets.
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On March 15 2012 05:00 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:47 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:34 Tsuki.eu wrote:
Dont compare SC2 with LoL please, altough you can call them both e-sports, LoL is extremly casual compared to SC2. They serve a diferent crowd. Perhaps this is a bad example but. LoL is like playing beach football with your palls, its super fun (even to watch). Sc2 is more like being part of your college football team, you do it for fun but also because you love the competitionm and everything envolved. Im happy both e-sports are sucessfull, its all part of the same big family, there is no need to argue who is the most loved son.
The problem with this argument is that LoL pulls more viewers than sc2 at a competitive eSports level. That is not a problem imo.
I said problem with this argument, not with eSports
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On March 15 2012 05:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. Show nested quote +I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW). Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport.
Thank you! Your definition includes everything that DOTA, etc(at high levels require). I'm assuming you haven't played a moba before though. At high levels it's not a herpa derpa walk around and kill shit and ignore your team.
Congrats on using a silly analogy that is no way even correlated with a game. Guess I'm done talking to you.
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the reason i don't play LOL is because there is no multitasking involved and you can't outskill your opponents by using mechanics.
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Nice thread, but im sure you shouldn't talk about like "every high level stream shittalks" at the LoL part. Lets hope so we can live by next to eachanother
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One thing SC2 has over LoL is in terms of sponsors and Independence. People are able to host tournaments with no monetary help from Blizzard where I have heard that Riot is basically the biggest sponsor of almost every tournament. SC2 has more sustainability until LoL can hold it's own and receive sponsors not including Riot.
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The professionalism in LoL is one of my main concerns for LoL as an esport. My brother is heavily into LoL and has gone into watching a lot of streams, but he's adopted a negative attitude towards esports as a bunch of loser nerds who rage at each other and are social failures, based on their inability to be articulate in a professional, solid manner - they could really learn from people like Day9 xD.
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On March 15 2012 05:20 Canadaehz wrote:
One thing SC2 has over LoL is in terms of sponsors and Independence. People are able to host tournaments with no monetary help from Blizzard where I have heard that Riot is basically the biggest sponsor of almost every tournament. SC2 has more sustainability until LoL can hold it's own and receive sponsors not including Riot.
Riot is the main contributer due to the insane prizepools. IIRC, they hosted a million dollar LOL tournament last year.
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On March 15 2012 05:20 Canadaehz wrote:
One thing SC2 has over LoL is in terms of sponsors and Independence. People are able to host tournaments with no monetary help from Blizzard where I have heard that Riot is basically the biggest sponsor of almost every tournament. SC2 has more sustainability until LoL can hold it's own and receive sponsors not including Riot.
Saying Starcraft 2 has independence over League of Legends is iffy when you consider that any decent sized Starcraft 2 tournament has to answer to Blizzard.
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On March 15 2012 05:17 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:13 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 05:05 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 05:02 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:59 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 04:56 Talin wrote:On March 15 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On March 15 2012 04:44 HaXXspetten wrote:
LoL just isn't serious enough for an e-sport imo As I said previously, LoL events get more viewers than sc2, which I feel is the source of many people's hate. Has anyone ever said they dislike LoL because it gets more viewers? No, but people are stating it's not an eSport because it's too "casual". It's getting a shit ton more viewers in events than SC2, yet people don't consider it an eSport because of some arbitrary definition they just randomly came up with. So let me get it straight, there are dozens of threads where hundreds of people explain in detail what their definitions and standards are, yet you choose to disregard all of that and make up your own reason as to why people don't like it? How exactly do you intend to have a conversation on the topic if you choose to ignore what is being said? Not everything that gets views is a sport - it does actually have to fulfill some of those "random arbitrary definitions" as you call them. That's the thing, there's hundreds of threads with different definitions. Each person has their own arbitrary definition of "eSports". LOL isn't competitive? Why? Cause it's focused on team play? What about FPS games? FPS games require a sense of timing, hand-eye coordination, handspeed and mouse precision besides all the in-game strategy, teamwork, knowledge, and such things. I don't know how you can not consider a game an eSport when it's pulling in more viewers than essentially every game out there(beyond BW). Then as the guy above me said, Justin Bieber is indeed the greatest esport. Thank you! Your definition includes everything that DOTA, etc(at high levels require).
So would you say it requires an equal or greater degree of those specific skills than an FPS game?
I'm sure that clicking on characters that move slow as hell must be as difficult as hitting a target the size of a few pixels in CS with reaction time being measured in milliseconds.
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On March 15 2012 05:23 Talin wrote:
So would you say it requires an equal or greater degree of those specific skills than an FPS game?
I'm sure that clicking on characters that move slow as hell must be as difficult as hitting a target the size of a few pixels in CS with reaction time being measured in milliseconds.
You're correct, in the sense that it doesn't require AS much as a FPS. But if you want to base it off of that, how could you consider SC2 an esport? BW takes much more multitasking/skill.
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this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe?
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On March 15 2012 05:25 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:23 Talin wrote:
So would you say it requires an equal or greater degree of those specific skills than an FPS game?
I'm sure that clicking on characters that move slow as hell must be as difficult as hitting a target the size of a few pixels in CS with reaction time being measured in milliseconds. You're correct, in the sense that it doesn't require AS much as a FPS. But if you want to base it off of that, how could you consider SC2 an esport? BW takes much more multitasking/skill.
I do agree with that comparison.
But when given a choice between any two games, I'd rather focus (and want the industry to focus) on the one with a higher degree of physical and mechanical skill as a matter of principle.
That said, like I said in the other thread, on a personal level I actually don't mind my favorite game taking a back seat in popularity at all. Popularity carries a lot of things I end up disliking about the community and the scene.
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On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe?
Flash laughs at all of us equally as hard.
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On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe?
I could bring in the FGC community and draw parallels to the angry mob mentality that they have and why it's hard for them to be taken seriously from a sponsor standpoint which is something LoL is having right now. But, lets not go there... =P
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Though I don't belive this worth it's own thread, odds are that not even %10 of people would see it as a regular post in the actual thread.
Truthfully, that point about the business and community of LoL is what kills it for me.
I can understand casual games being enjoyable and applealing to a larger audience, sure. That's natural.
I can understand the idea of teamwork vs. Individual skill (though I do tend to recognize individual skills as more important).
I can even understand how the casting and viewing of the games is not necesarilly the fault of anyone, game, or company, but as a general concept of the genre/type of game.
But the people behind this game... It is one of the most miserable groups communities of gamers I've ever met. The way I view it, they're no different than in any other team game. For the sake of examples, Halo.
In Halo, most peopel run around with microphones, so you don't hear them. But, when you do, it is extremely often for people to run feelings of blame, anger, and general douchebaggery. Luckily, they keep it to themselves.
Unfortunately, everyone in LoL has access to a keyboard, and proudly use it in the first 1/2 of the game for strategy, and in the second 1/2 for blaming their teammates for their failures. I'm very surprised to find a game where my teammates are not only cooperating at any level or time, but do so on a regular basis. In LoL, teamwork is more like 5 people competing for a spot as leader.
P.S. Funniest thing I've ever experienced in LoL was a man claiming that he was the team leader because he was, "the Alpha Male." Obviously extreme, but that's the way I view the communty.
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On March 15 2012 05:29 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe? Flash laughs at all of us equally as hard.
Flash is unimpressed at this debate. =D
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On March 15 2012 05:22 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:20 Canadaehz wrote:
One thing SC2 has over LoL is in terms of sponsors and Independence. People are able to host tournaments with no monetary help from Blizzard where I have heard that Riot is basically the biggest sponsor of almost every tournament. SC2 has more sustainability until LoL can hold it's own and receive sponsors not including Riot. Saying Starcraft 2 has independence over League of Legends is iffy when you consider that any decent sized Starcraft 2 tournament has to answer to Blizzard.
You missed the point. Answering to Blizzard is way different than 'Blizzard supplied all cash for prize money / venue', which is what Riot does.
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On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe?
wait until hon, dota, dota2 enters here too!
or wait until angry birds, plants vs zombies, and farmville also enter in the conversation too (because why the hell not!) (JK)
+ Show Spoiler +
if you can't get sarcasm, this is a joke'
this thread.....
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On March 15 2012 05:30 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:29 SupLilSon wrote:On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe? Flash laughs at all of us equally as hard. Flash is unimpressed at this debate. =D
Flash plays SC2, LoL and Dota.. at the same time while he's practicing BW to work on his multitasking.
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On March 15 2012 05:29 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:25 Orracle wrote:On March 15 2012 05:23 Talin wrote:
So would you say it requires an equal or greater degree of those specific skills than an FPS game?
I'm sure that clicking on characters that move slow as hell must be as difficult as hitting a target the size of a few pixels in CS with reaction time being measured in milliseconds. You're correct, in the sense that it doesn't require AS much as a FPS. But if you want to base it off of that, how could you consider SC2 an esport? BW takes much more multitasking/skill. I do agree with that comparison. But when given a choice between any two games, I'd rather focus (and want the industry to focus) on the one with a higher degree of physical and mechanical skill as a matter of principle. That said, like I said in the other thread, on a personal level I actually don't mind my favorite game taking a back seat in popularity at all. Popularity carries a lot of things I end up disliking about the community and the scene.
I don't understand why there can't be differentiation in the E-Sports industry, akin to differentiation in the sports industry. The argument you could make, which would be contrary to this thread, is that XYZ MOBA has a higher skill cap than QRS MOBA.
Industries should focus on whatever creates the most interest in their viewers and fills niches that need filling. This even allows for a multitude of MOBA games, similar to BW and SC2 filling different niches despite being the same type of game.
Pursuing recreational sports and viewing experiences for only utilitarian and technological pursuit advancements would fail to reach broad appeal, though ti would reach a more specialized profession within itself, if that's what the goal is.
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I get boring by LoL because it's only one map and always the same champions. I was top 200 on eu lol server but in the LoL there is so much rage, ragequit and hate. It was terrible after a while. So I decided to go SC2 and it was the right decision.
A lot of tactics and you must use your brain . I like LoL but SC2 is in my opinion 100 times better for viewers and for players.
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On March 15 2012 05:27 dAPhREAk wrote:
this is devolving into fps vs sc2 vs sc:bw vs LoL. is there no esport that is safe?
But only the game I like is a *true* esport. The rest of these aren't esports at all.
No, [insert favorite game here] is a real esport. Anyone who likes these other games are people who sucked at [insert favorite game here] and needed to find a easier game to play. [insert favorite game here] requires such good skills, rediculous game knowledge, and a ton of practice. [insert least favorite game here] has suck a low skill cap compared to [insert favorite game here]. And everything else besides [insert favorite game here] is really boring to watch and therefore it's not an esport!!
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Only SF4 is safe because it is the final boss game.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Your opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's. Please post in existing threads about this topic.
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EPT
