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Disclaimer: This is not a change I ever expect to be put in the game, or even want to be put into the game. I'm posting this mainly for fun, and to get different views on the subject. Perhaps your views on what you want from the game will change.
A few days ago I was reading the thread about people not playing 1v1 on ladder as much any more (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311533). While there were a lot of reasons why people didn't play 1v1 as much anymore, a recurring topic from a lot of posters (myself including) was the abundance of cheese/all-ins and coin-toss style builds prevelant on the NA ladder, even at the "master level." This is also something you hear some pros complain about a lot.
I then realized that if there were no fog of war for the first 3 or so (maybe 4) minutes of the game, most of these problems would be significantly reduced, or eliminated altogether. Specifically:
1. No more proxy anything. You would see your opponent building the proxy gateway/rax, and be able to respond accordingly. No more cannon rushes. Not only that, 6 pool would be basically pointless, as you would see your opponent doing it. This would virtually eliminate all the extremely early game losses, except at the lowest levels where players don't have the mechanical skills to respond to them.
2. This would help another issue that others have mentioned, and that is the lack of scouting ability, particularly against terran. A terran would no longer be able to wall off, get a single marine, and deny all scouting for the first 7-8 minutes of the game. You would no longer have to guess whether there is a gas back there, a command center, or 3 more rax. This would help level the playing field in terms of early-game scouting. It would also be harder for the other two races to set up early all-ins, as these usually require big worker cuts or double gases.
After I realized this, I started thinking about what sort of game would evolve from this. Would economic plays become the norm? Would excessively greedy plays (no gas expands, nexus first) completely disappear because they would be too easy to punish? Would "safe" plays that have both aggressive and passive options after the 3 minute mark become THE build to do for all races?
I think long-term it would stifle creativity, but in the short term it would remove a lot of the "coin toss" and "build order" losses that everyone seems to bitch about. I know it would never happen, but it is interesting to think how the game would evolve if a lot of the early aggression was removed.
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let's be honest here, that's half the fun
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I'm sorry, but no offense this is a terrible idea for many reasons. It would essentially allow you to play the game like close positions ZvZ. you and your opponent knowing exactly what your opponent is doing ruins the concept of scouting, map control and opening build orders for the first three minutes.
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This suggestion is so terrible that it has to be genuine.
Awww
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No, that is nonsense. People are not really afraid of cheese. They are lying when they say that, even to themselves. They are afraid of losing and unwilling to face the fact that they tried hard and still lost, and instead of gainig motivation from it and moving on, they blame the builds, the race, the player, the weather, lag, cheese.
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Why not just play on Blizzard beginner maps where rocks block you from your opponent?
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This is like the worst I have ever heard lol.
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Yeah, let's turn the game into something where you don't need to scout, all-ins are never viable, and games will last hours.
If anything, maybe the first minute. 3 minutes is way too much information.
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People often compare Starcraft to chess. If it really was the case everyone should have map hacks.
I wonder what the game would be like...the player with better macro always win? You'd never be able to drop either. Protoss would probably rape face.
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The game needs to be exciting from the start. All of the openings in the game are based off of having little or no information and being able to react to what is scouted.
So the answer is no. The idea is dumb and removes the best part of SC2. If you want to play a game where you have perfect information, play chess.
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Why don't we keep fog of war and just have players type in the in game chat what build they're doing. Also,since skill seems to be such a problem in SC2, we should just remove multiplayer completely in favor of playing against the computer on very easy mode. This would also eliminate the "coin toss" and "build order" losses that everyone seems to bitch about.
This is easily the dumbest thread I've ever read. I hope this is a troll.
User was warned for this post
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I see your point, and the "cheesy" play on the NA ladder can be frustrating, but I think an even bigger problem than all the cheesy play is the attitude towards cheesy play. Many people have said that in Korea, there is no such thing as cheese. I really prefer this attitude towards the game, because it keeps variety in the game. If every single game was a 30 minute macro fest, why don't we all just start the game with 4 bases? It doesn't make sense to force the game into a massive macro style game every time, and people who complain about 1 or 2 base all ins and cheese refuse to understand that there's more to the game than just macro'ing hard. Cheese and all ins require a different skill set, the heavy micro and mind games, that are also a part of the game along with prioritizing tasks and planning a huge game plan.
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Why would you want to artificially kill a whole bunch of strategies...? You would kill not only all-ins, but also any slightly risky FE. Seriously, that wouldn't improve the game whatsoever.
The "coinflip" feel of certain matchups/situations will go away by itself once people get better and know how to defend and what builds actually are safe (you already can see this, just watch for example Genius vs MC, the winning player knew his builds and knew exactly how to react to each attack/pressure).
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That's a very interesting idea, for ladder at least. In professional games I think it would be 100% unacceptable and stupid, but in ladder I could see it as possibly maybe kind of somewhat reasonable? I don't know, it would have to be an optional thing imo.
I think 3 minutes is a little too much, too, as a lot of builds and their subtleties have started to/have taken shape by those 3 first minutes.
And also, even if it weren't a feature in pro play, it would prevent pro players from practicing on ladder at all.
As I said, interesting idea but I doubt it could really work.
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This actually happens occasionally in normal games. It's called close air zvz. You know what happens? Both players go hatch pool and as soon as the queens come out they rush without making drones at their expansion. All giving temporary vision accomplishes is delaying the inevitable.
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I don't really like this. I take the catz viewpoint that I would prefer making people work around problems than solving them in blunt-force ways that tend to stifle creativity. Anyway, holding off proxys and cheeses actually gives me a lot of satisfaction and adds a lot to the game.
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This might be the single worst suggestion I've ever seen for StarCraft.
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On February 18 2012 03:31 Jinsho wrote:
No, that is nonsense. People are not really afraid of cheese. They are lying when they say that, even to themselves. They are afraid of losing and unwilling to face the fact that they tried hard and still lost, and instead of gainig motivation from it and moving on, they blame the builds, the race, the player, the weather, lag, cheese.
Haven't you heard of Caseusophobia?
The idea of taking the fog of warr away strips the game from a layer of skill that is good scouting, because up to 3 minutes you're free to scout with your workers.
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I did enjoy in Age of Empires how you started with a scout unit.
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The game would be extremely boring without (the possibility of) cheese. In the end, we'd have one opener for every matchup. There'd be no playstyle difference between players (greedy, safe, aggressive) during the first 3 minutes and no tension at all. Awful idea imo.
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nobody would be making any offensive structures for the first 10 min of the game
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On February 18 2012 03:37 Redeamer wrote:
nobody would be making any offensive structures for the first 10 min of the game
Imagine people like quadruple expanding before making their pool/gateway LOl
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OP made by clueless player that has no grasp of the idea of timing.
Why the first 3m?
Imagine that T is the only race that diverges in the first 3m (gas/no gas), and the other races play the same. But then from 3-6m, the other races diverge. P is difficult to scout after the first stalker is out 410m+. So should Protoss be revealed after 410? After all, Protoss one-base hits at 7-720m.
What about strategies that only diverge after 8m? 10? 15m?
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lol wow..one of the worst suggestions ive seen for stopping cheese...
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Problem below GM level isnt that the game is coinflip and that 6p is coinflip, you can defend 6p with ANYTHING if you scout. Problem is people on lower leagues cant read what their opponent is doing based on enemy's army (or what they scout at ramp).
Sometimes its hard to scout and its your opponents job to hide what he is doing (if he's cheesing) and scouting is huge part of the game - if it wasnt in game, game would suck even for first couple of minutes. There is always some luck in BO's, but if player is better he should still win and as far as proxy goes if its 2 player map why dont you just scout around your base with your worker? If you are that greedy you do deserve to lose 
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I would proxy 2 gate next to their nexus every game just to confuse the hell out of them
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Sweden1871 Posts
I think you should be able to make alliances like in AoE. You and your opponent vs the neutral units in the map, if you kill all of them you both get points, WINNING!
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On February 18 2012 03:45 Xcobidoo wrote:
I think you should be able to make alliances like in AoE. You and your opponent vs the neutral units in the map, if you kill all of them you both get points, WINNING!
Made me LOL, well played sir.
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Your idea would make the game sooooo fun! I can't believe no one else mentioned this earlier!
+ Show Spoiler +U kidding me bro? It takes fun/strategy out of the game completely.
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I've come to the conclusion that either:
a. People don't read don't read OPs at all, just read titles then go post their knee-jerk-dumbass-reaction (not based on this thread alone, see any thread about MLG PPV).
or
b. Bolding something is actually a great way to make it invisible, not more visible.
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They should put this in practice league lol. Then you could watch just how bad your opponent is for the first 4 minutes while you're doing nothing.
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holy shit, a thought just occured to me.
Starcraft is Chess without any vision on what your opponent is doing O_O
ITS LIKE BATTLE SHIP CHESS OMFGGG
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You might want to post this suggestion on blizzards forums, it will probably be more liked there.
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On February 18 2012 03:36 Gfire wrote:
I did enjoy in Age of Empires how you started with a scout unit.
In Starcraft 2 you start with 6 scouting units.
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On February 18 2012 03:49 MaverickSC wrote:
holy shit, a thought just occured to me.
Starcraft is Chess without any vision on what your opponent is doing O_O
ITS LIKE BATTLE SHIP CHESS OMFGGG
Me: C-8
Opponent: Hit. You SUNK MY BATTLESHIP.
Opponent: GG
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20 gates go up at the 3:01 mark.
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I don't like the idea at all.. It takes all of the fun away
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It's not really the fog of war itself that is the problem though is it... it's the lack of scouting information early on due to decision pressure on focusing economy.
If they gave every race a little "scout" unit along with your 6 workers (an SCV that can't mine) that would be a much more elegant solution.
It's never going to happen though.
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how about fastest map as a 1v1 ladder map?
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It just means a delayed all-in.
no problem.
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I actually expected it to be that he would mean that the mini map would be completely black when you first started; like how it is in Brood War. That would be rather interesting, but probably not worthy of contribution.
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Yeah I mean it is a really terrible suggestion. Now maybe if it only worked for  I'd be okay with it haha
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On February 18 2012 03:33 LuckyFool wrote:
People often compare Starcraft to chess. If it really was the case everyone should have map hacks.
I wonder what the game would be like...the player with better macro always win? You'd never be able to drop either. Protoss would probably rape face.
Nah Zerg would. You be able to know exactly when to build Drones and when not too. See your Protoss buddy chrono Probes? Time for 12 Drones. If he is making an Army, pool your Larva. Eventually the timing of every attack could be figured out down to the Larva.
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On February 18 2012 03:53 Klive5ive wrote:
It's not really the fog of war itself that is the problem though is it... it's the lack of scouting information early on due to decision pressure on focusing economy.
If they gave every race a little "scout" unit along with your 6 workers (an SCV that can't mine) that would be a much more elegant solution.
It's never going to happen though.
I know you are speaking hypothetically but I will have to disagree. Both players are under the same economic pressures and both players have to deal with the same possibilities of being cheesed. So it is a choice of the player to scout or not with their workers substituting economy for information. It is a great dynamic of the game that should stay as it is. I think that lower level players just need to learn how to scout better.
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United States22154 Posts
This thread is kind of pointless, while I appreciate the effort, theorycraft about changes that will never happen is not really what this forum is here for.
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EPT
