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UmberBane
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany5450 Posts
January 04 2014 21:13 GMT
#1801
On January 05 2014 06:00 AsnSensation wrote:
Wasn't the Quantic the now C9 were leaving already the reformed quantic?


Ah both actually, lol.

Nov 2012 - Dec 2012 Quantic Gaming
Dec 2012 - Apr 2013 Cloud 9
Apr 2013 - May 2013 Quantic Gaming
May 2013 - Present Cloud 9

From leaguepedia.
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
January 04 2014 21:26 GMT
#1802
On January 05 2014 05:46 UmberBane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 05:34 Redox wrote:
Btw It makes me shudder to think that Quantic almost qualifed for LCS and their scumbag Canadian owner would have gotten hold of the spot. He would have given his players as little as possible and used the Riot money to pay off his debts. Or tried to sell the spot to keep the money for himself.


You think he would have paid Hyun from that money? Could be possible, he probably just went super all in with the Loco team.
It's kind of tragic in a way that both times Quantic collapsed it was supposedly due to their LoL teams leaving.

I don't think the first one was the league team leaving, hell hai went on starcraft reddit and said he literally found out about quantic dissolving from it. The first one died because the owner then was a bit too eager and spent too much.
Glorious SEA doto
UmberBane
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany5450 Posts
January 04 2014 21:29 GMT
#1803
On January 05 2014 06:26 Fusilero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 05:46 UmberBane wrote:
On January 05 2014 05:34 Redox wrote:
Btw It makes me shudder to think that Quantic almost qualifed for LCS and their scumbag Canadian owner would have gotten hold of the spot. He would have given his players as little as possible and used the Riot money to pay off his debts. Or tried to sell the spot to keep the money for himself.


You think he would have paid Hyun from that money? Could be possible, he probably just went super all in with the Loco team.
It's kind of tragic in a way that both times Quantic collapsed it was supposedly due to their LoL teams leaving.

I don't think the first one was the league team leaving, hell hai went on starcraft reddit and said he literally found out about quantic dissolving from it. The first one died because the owner then was a bit too eager and spent too much.


Yeah, now that I think about the timeframe it seems wrong. I'm 100% sure that I read it in either an ongamers or dailydot article in the last 2-3 days and just kind of believed it without looking much into it.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22345 Posts
January 04 2014 21:34 GMT
#1804
On January 05 2014 06:11 Amethyst21 wrote:
Honestly, what former Alternate did, (create their own company, offer naming rights to a title sponsor) should be the standard, and RIOT should be helping teams achieve this.

I wonder if current teams who haven't done this might be able to do it now or if there teams just say no to it.
And yes maybe Riot should have a look at this. I highly doubt they like this situation either where teams buy LCS spots kicking the players who earned it for there own.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Vlanitak
Profile Joined November 2009
Norway3045 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 22:00:41
January 04 2014 22:00 GMT
#1805
Cloud 9 picks up Apple is sour for the European Coke Zero League cloud9.gg/blog/lol-eu-team
good to see cross regional interesting like this to sponser challenger level teams
washed
Usagi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain1647 Posts
January 04 2014 22:02 GMT
#1806
That players society team model might be profitable for players in the short term, but terrible for the team as an entity in the long run, what if a player wants to leave, or the rest of the team thinks he is underperforming, they will have to buy out his part... the more I tjhink of it the more complicated it gets.
Amethyst21
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada7032 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 22:09:04
January 04 2014 22:05 GMT
#1807
On January 05 2014 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 06:11 Amethyst21 wrote:
Honestly, what former Alternate did, (create their own company, offer naming rights to a title sponsor) should be the standard, and RIOT should be helping teams achieve this.

I wonder if current teams who haven't done this might be able to do it now or if there teams just say no to it.
And yes maybe Riot should have a look at this. I highly doubt they like this situation either where teams buy LCS spots kicking the players who earned it for there own.


If they have contracts (unless they have opt-out clauses) they will be locked in. Tbh, its not much of a problem with the TSM/CLG/fnatic/EG tier of teams - these are reasonably big business, so its not a big deal to be 'just' an employee. The problem is when you have these 2nd rate 'e-sport clubs' Copenhagen Wolves, Lemondogs, Quantic, etc, that they aren't always looking out for their players interests.

I mean forming a company is so amazingly easy (at least in Canada) that I have one (cost me like 60 bucks? for a sole proprietorship) for my contract work, - it was very simple to do. I know that a company with 5 people is more complicated but nothing you probably couldn't pay a business lawyer to make. Nothing too expensive for sure - and considering the thousands and thousands of dollars at stake, the outlay of $200 or so, doesn't seem that unreasonable to get something that the players control.

On January 05 2014 07:02 Usagi wrote:
That players society team model might be profitable for players in the short term, but terrible for the team as an entity in the long run, what if a player wants to leave, or the rest of the team thinks he is underperforming, they will have to buy out his part... the more I tjhink of it the more complicated it gets.


You can put clauses in the company 'a company charter' that deal with these situations. A majority vote to kick a player, or whatever the team decides is a fair method of kicking/buying out a player. I mean people don't love lawyers, but there are reasons that they exist - to create fair and equitable ways to do something like this.
/On the C9 Hype Train/@DatFirefly
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
January 04 2014 22:05 GMT
#1808
On January 05 2014 07:02 Usagi wrote:
That players society team model might be profitable for players in the short term, but terrible for the team as an entity in the long run, what if a player wants to leave, or the rest of the team thinks he is underperforming, they will have to buy out his part... the more I tjhink of it the more complicated it gets.

They kick the player and thats it. Simple majority rule. Just like Atn kicked Forellenlord without any problems.
Off-season = best season
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 22:15:20
January 04 2014 22:13 GMT
#1809
On January 05 2014 07:00 Vlanitak wrote:
Cloud 9 picks up Apple is sour for the European Coke Zero League cloud9.gg/blog/lol-eu-team
good to see cross regional interesting like this to sponser challenger level teams

Awesome, then if they qualify for the LCS they can change their name and pretend they have a different owner!

I kid, that's actually pretty cool.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22345 Posts
January 04 2014 22:25 GMT
#1810
On January 05 2014 07:05 Amethyst21 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 06:34 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 05 2014 06:11 Amethyst21 wrote:
Honestly, what former Alternate did, (create their own company, offer naming rights to a title sponsor) should be the standard, and RIOT should be helping teams achieve this.

I wonder if current teams who haven't done this might be able to do it now or if there teams just say no to it.
And yes maybe Riot should have a look at this. I highly doubt they like this situation either where teams buy LCS spots kicking the players who earned it for there own.


If they have contracts (unless they have opt-out clauses) they will be locked in. Tbh, its not much of a problem with the TSM/CLG/fnatic/EG tier of teams - these are reasonably big business, so its not a big deal to be 'just' an employee. The problem is when you have these 2nd rate 'e-sport clubs' Copenhagen Wolves, Lemondogs, Quantic, etc, that they aren't always looking out for their players interests.

I mean forming a company is so amazingly easy (at least in Canada) that I have one (cost me like 60 bucks? for a sole proprietorship) for my contract work, - it was very simple to do. I know that a company with 5 people is more complicated but nothing you probably couldn't pay a business lawyer to make. Nothing too expensive for sure - and considering the thousands and thousands of dollars at stake, the outlay of $200 or so, doesn't seem that unreasonable to get something that the players control.

Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 07:02 Usagi wrote:
That players society team model might be profitable for players in the short term, but terrible for the team as an entity in the long run, what if a player wants to leave, or the rest of the team thinks he is underperforming, they will have to buy out his part... the more I tjhink of it the more complicated it gets.


You can put clauses in the company 'a company charter' that deal with these situations. A majority vote to kick a player, or whatever the team decides is a fair method of kicking/buying out a player. I mean people don't love lawyers, but there are reasons that they exist - to create fair and equitable ways to do something like this.

Totally agree, tho I would like to add that while companies like EG/Fnatic wont die like Quantic has done there is still the case of EG kicking there entire team in exchange for 5 other guys while keeping the spot.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
January 04 2014 23:48 GMT
#1811
On January 05 2014 07:00 Vlanitak wrote:
Cloud 9 picks up Apple is sour for the European Coke Zero League cloud9.gg/blog/lol-eu-team
good to see cross regional interesting like this to sponser challenger level teams

Apparently Odoamne and Febiven are gods in yolo queue who beat all the top tier players on a regular basis and voidle has been performing far better with them.
Glorious SEA doto
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9206 Posts
January 05 2014 00:35 GMT
#1812
On January 05 2014 08:48 Fusilero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 07:00 Vlanitak wrote:
Cloud 9 picks up Apple is sour for the European Coke Zero League cloud9.gg/blog/lol-eu-team
good to see cross regional interesting like this to sponser challenger level teams

Apparently Odoamne and Febiven are gods in yolo queue who beat all the top tier players on a regular basis and voidle has been performing far better with them.

He's the first Romanian player on a decently competitive team, Dota is still way bigger than LoL here. By the way his name means "oh god"
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
January 05 2014 03:04 GMT
#1813
On January 05 2014 09:35 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2014 08:48 Fusilero wrote:
On January 05 2014 07:00 Vlanitak wrote:
Cloud 9 picks up Apple is sour for the European Coke Zero League cloud9.gg/blog/lol-eu-team
good to see cross regional interesting like this to sponser challenger level teams

Apparently Odoamne and Febiven are gods in yolo queue who beat all the top tier players on a regular basis and voidle has been performing far better with them.

He's the first Romanian player on a decently competitive team, Dota is still way bigger than LoL here. By the way his name means "oh god"

is Dota bigger than Travian in Romanian? huehue
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Pantagruel
Profile Joined September 2011
United States1427 Posts
January 05 2014 09:27 GMT
#1814
I don't think players should ever own the LCS spot, the inmates shouldn't run the asylum. In no traditional team sport or competitive game that I know of do the players themselves own the organization. In the long run this would be impossible and detrimental to the scene.

What needs to happen is quite simple however. Riot needs to introduce some guidelines that teams must follow to protect the players to some degree, and it needs to require a standard contract for a player that wants to join an organization which can protect both the interests of the team and the player. This way, it would no longer be possible to essentially buy a team and turn over the entire roster with your own players.
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
January 05 2014 09:50 GMT
#1815
Did you just compare E-sports (with teams consisting of 5) with a prison? xD
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
January 05 2014 10:22 GMT
#1816
On January 05 2014 18:50 AsnSensation wrote:
Did you just compare E-sports (with teams consisting of 5) with a prison? xD


Even prisoners have more protection than players
chalice
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1945 Posts
January 05 2014 15:02 GMT
#1817
if na and europe want to ever be competitive with asia they should be trying to get as far away from the player owned teams model as possible.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22345 Posts
January 05 2014 15:14 GMT
#1818
On January 06 2014 00:02 chalice wrote:
if na and europe want to ever be competitive with asia they should be trying to get as far away from the player owned teams model as possible.

Because business owned teams do so well *cough* Dignitas/Curse/SK *cough*

This is about players getting screwed by there team when they earn a spot only to get replaced. Not about competition.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Duvon
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden2360 Posts
January 05 2014 15:54 GMT
#1819
On January 06 2014 00:14 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2014 00:02 chalice wrote:
if na and europe want to ever be competitive with asia they should be trying to get as far away from the player owned teams model as possible.

Because business owned teams do so well *cough* Dignitas/Curse/SK *cough*

This is about players getting screwed by there team when they earn a spot only to get replaced. Not about competition.

OTOH the team needs to be able to get "rough" if the player situation requires it, and it's easier to be the overlord than giving the friendly kick.
Nothing is impossible, only some things for some people.
bokchoi
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Korea (South)9498 Posts
January 05 2014 17:10 GMT
#1820
The lack of stable Western organizations just goes to show that Riot should allow sister/brother teams in the LCS (aka allow organizations to have 2 teams). I can understand why they would be against it, potential monopolization of a scene/players, but at the same time the Korean and Chinese scenes have shown exactly why this model works. I also feel like it would've prevented the VES/EG debacle and rumored LD/NiP situation.
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