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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 03:27 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:25 TaKemE wrote:On December 15 2011 03:23 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:08 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 03:07 Master_Blaster wrote:
Not all warriors are Samurais so why make them harakiri even though they don't have the some principles of life? GOM is forcing the korean principles on StarCraft over the foreign scene and i don't actually like that.
You really think it's a Korean principle to, if you're paid to have people watch you play a game, actually make some attempt at playing the game? Actually they are not payed to play for us, but we pay to see them play. Quite a difference. And he played 100% when it mattered. PLEASE make this the thread topic! GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" Didnt you watch the stream? He DID play FOUR games. Are you dense? not even going to bother. you must be one of the advocates that the probe rush is a legitimate strategy in starcraft 2. But where do you get the idea that he was payed $850 to play 4 games? thats money he won by makeing it into the tournament. he did not win anything, this argument of self entitlement to what's never yours is starting to get ridiculous. gom is not stupid enough to send some guy $850 for winning some random tournament half across the world. he got the money for completing the group stages which he didn't. it's in the rules.
He did complete it you fing moron. Where in the rules does it say that 7 probe rush is illegal?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 15 2011 03:28 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:15 LanTAs wrote:
The GSL is a complete joke. He did nothing wrong within the rules, and they revoke his well earned Code S seed for no reason? Idra and Sen didn't even place as well as Nani did at past MLG's, maybe its the korean mentality about things and they don't feel like Nani deserves it because of his manners?
Screw it, i'm just not going to watch GSL for a few years in protest of it. The two code S spots are invite-only. Naniwa, according to a lot of players, coaches, teams, and spectators, happens to be one of the most disrespectful, belligerent players out there. They don't want to invite him for that reason. It's pretty simple and I would do the same if I wanted to run a respectable tournament.
but, how do you that? by simply not following any rules? so far Naniwa has been a good and consistent player, just because you don't like him you kick him out? then why have qualifiers? just invite you fav players and give the win to your favorite. What i'm saying is you're creating a double standard based on opinions. Many people hate X soccer player personality, should he be banned from World Cup so we can have a suposed decent tournament? it seems wrong
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Amazing that there can be so much drama over a stupid probe cheese
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Does anyone remember how the Koreans pulled out the last second before NASL ? They knew it way before but they announced it till the last second just to fuck with NASL ... dont talk about honor and whatever.
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On December 15 2011 03:31 StarStruck wrote:
Let's put the Johan shit behind us.
I really want to discuss the new rule because it has MORE ramifications than anything else and can be interpreted in many different ways.
It's very vague, especially when you lump in the AUDIENCE.
It's a huge logistical issue.
Logistical? What?
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I honestly think the repercussions of his gsl ban are the least of his worries. Seems like teams, players, and coaches are really pissed. How will this affect his training in korea? Doubt anyone will accept them in their house anymore.
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On December 15 2011 03:31 StarStruck wrote:
Let's put the Johan shit behind us.
I really want to discuss the new rule because it has MORE ramifications than anything else and can be interpreted in many different ways.
It's very vague.
The rule is new? So why is NaNi kicked out without being made aware of it?
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On December 15 2011 03:31 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:28 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:26 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 03:25 TaKemE wrote:On December 15 2011 03:23 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:08 diophan wrote:
[quote]
You really think it's a Korean principle to, if you're paid to have people watch you play a game, actually make some attempt at playing the game? Actually they are not payed to play for us, but we pay to see them play. Quite a difference. And he played 100% when it mattered. PLEASE make this the thread topic! GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" Didnt you watch the stream? He DID play FOUR games. Are you dense? not even going to bother. you must be one of the advocates that the probe rush is a legitimate strategy in starcraft 2. But where do you get the idea that he was payed $850 to play 4 games? thats money he won by makeing it into the tournament. So when I sign an agreement to do research for a year at my university I can sit there doing nothing and I'm fulfilling my agreement? See, this shows that your logic is flawed. The analogy would be that you get money for a year, and you do the work in 9 months and your employer want you to fake work the other 3 months. Naniwa is paid per project not per hour in that analogy, GOM didn't want Nani to fake the last game, just like my university doesn't want to me to fake like I'm doing research in the last 3 months of my agreement. I actually think the analogy is quite apt--research is something you need to try at but which you might not necessarily get results, just like getting paid for a Starcraft tournament. If I try hard at my research but don't get the results I'm still fulfilling the agreement but if I do nothing I'm not.
GOM would have settled with a failed all in, just to show interest. Fake interest i might add. And I see that you didn't understand the analogy.
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On December 15 2011 03:29 Hellmutt wrote:
Nothing has 0% of success. You have 2 account for such things as Nestea getting a heart attack before a-moving his drones, a meteor hitting Nestea and things like that. Even though the chance of such a thing happening is probably 0.0000000001% the chance is still there and thus it's not a 0% win strategy.
Could you please spare us this kind of nonsense?
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On December 15 2011 03:23 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:08 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 03:07 Master_Blaster wrote:
Not all warriors are Samurais so why make them harakiri even though they don't have the some principles of life? GOM is forcing the korean principles on StarCraft over the foreign scene and i don't actually like that.
You really think it's a Korean principle to, if you're paid to have people watch you play a game, actually make some attempt at playing the game? Actually they are not payed to play for us, but we pay to see them play. Quite a difference. And he played 100% when it mattered. PLEASE make this the thread topic! GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" Didnt you watch the stream? He DID play FOUR games. Are you dense? not even going to bother. you must be one of the advocates that the probe rush is a legitimate strategy in starcraft 2.
it may not be a legitimate strategy in the sense that it could ever win (even though it could) but it definitely does not break any rules of the game. he entered the game -> used his strategy -> lost -> left the game. That's playing the game to me.
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I guess it could be worse ... I hope Naniwa learns from this and can come back for the season after.
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On December 15 2011 03:26 N1ghtshade wrote:
When in Rome, act as the Romans do.
Unless you're not in Rome and a Roman, then you get to act as a Roman anyway.
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On December 15 2011 03:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:17 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 15 2011 03:05 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 02:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 15 2011 02:50 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 02:47 ToasteR_ wrote:On December 15 2011 02:45 dp wrote:
His personal view on the situation is irrelevant. For example, lets imagine he was invited to a show match where the winner takes $5,000 and the loser takes $2,500. What if his mindset that day is that he only needs $2,500, so the match is meaningless. He probe rushes 3 games outta 5, losing outright. The contract doesn't necessarily state that he has to TRY to win the matches to get paid. You think this is OK? Of a professional? Grow up. Your personal views on the situation don't matter. You are being paid to provide entertainment to fans. If you don't feel the need to do your job, there is a good chance you won't have one.
No one would be satisfied with $2500 when $5000 can be won, your example is terrible. Maybe you are confused. It doesn't matter what you think. Remember? Only what he thinks. Because the world revolves around his mindset. If you can't understand the point of my post, don't respond with mindless dribble. K, thanks, bye. Your analogy is still faulty. Naniwa always plays to win tournaments, and he doesn't care about entertaining audiences. That's the way he is. If he loses, he wants to move on. He doesn't care about pleasing the crowd. He doesn't have the greatest personality (which clearly hurts him in situations like this, as Huk wouldn't have been punished in an identical situation), but he cares about success. The point is that what Naniwa finds to be meaningless at the time is not relevant. He is there to do a job, whether he wants to or not doesn't matter. Whether the outcome matters is irrelavant. If I go to work today and no customers come in, my boss still has to pay he. He can't decide not to. Likewise if I go in tomorrow and don't work while there are customers there, he has the right to fire me. This is how the world works. His personal view on the situation at the time doesn't matter. He did his job. Even if he was contracted to play a game vs. Nestea regardless of their 0-3 records, he sat in the booth and started the game. It's not like he didn't show up. You don't like his strategy? You don't like the lack of entertainment? Tough luck. Plenty of people don't like cheese and all-in strategies any more than a worker rush; they consider not standard play "not even trying". You can't make a person try to win a game that has no meaning for them. He did what he needed to do. No. His job is not to show up. Go ahead, do that at your job. Show up, but don't actually do what you are required to. Go work as a cashier and ring up the first item of 1 person and then stop and sit there. Let me know how that works out for you. A cashier does not have the same job or job description as a pro-gamer, nor is a tournament that you've already lost at related in any way to your first few minutes at a daily job. I'm sorry, but your analogies are all terrible. I guarantee you that if HuK or Sheth or White-Ra or Boxer or any other player who's known for their outstanding personality did something like this in a game that didn't matter towards the outcome of a tournament, it would be brushed aside and no punishment would be given.
Huk, Sheth, white-ra and Boxer would NOT do something like this because they are professionals, they want to show the best of their ability when put in the spotlight 100% of the time. They can put their boohoo feelings and emotions aside and man up for the next 7-20 minutes or so since something good can come out of it. I still don't get why people justify Naniwas emo banter. Grow up, grow a pair, this would have a been such a meaningful game in preparation of CODE S to face Nestea in the booth in the spotlight but nope he let his emotions and boohoo feelings get in the way and emo'd out like an unprofessional.
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On December 15 2011 03:32 Nagano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:27 paulinepain wrote:
Saying that it was a wrong behavior because people are expecting good shows and paying for it is irrelevant, you can go watch football in a stadium, players aren't forced to make you happy by putting a good show, they play the way they want nobody is forcing you to watch them and as a player nobody is forcing you to win if you don't want to. Now this behavior was harsh and disrespectful towards Nestea.
Now GOMTV decision is for me wrong because they acted like they actually had rules against this type of situation, which they hadn't, therefore they should have made a public statement and then publish their new policies and ask Naniwa to make a public apology. I think this procedure would have been more professional for a scene that is actually new. I agree that rules should have been in place. But because it's the first incident of its type does not mean we should excuse it. This is hypothetical but I am sure if Naniwa had the reputation of being a well-mannered player up to this one incident, GOM would have in all likelihood excused it. In reality, Naniwa is one of the most professionally reviled players out there. I'm not making this up, just ask a lot of players, coaches, teams, viewers of SC2 here and in Korea. There seems to be a incident involving him every tournament he goes to. That is something the GSL did not want, and because they were not obligated to invite him, they didn't. It's as simple as that.
Contrary to your belief, Johan has always acted like this. However, this shit really isn't as bad. Its overkill.
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On December 15 2011 03:33 Cruncharoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:23 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:08 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 03:07 Master_Blaster wrote:
Not all warriors are Samurais so why make them harakiri even though they don't have the some principles of life? GOM is forcing the korean principles on StarCraft over the foreign scene and i don't actually like that.
You really think it's a Korean principle to, if you're paid to have people watch you play a game, actually make some attempt at playing the game? Actually they are not payed to play for us, but we pay to see them play. Quite a difference. And he played 100% when it mattered. PLEASE make this the thread topic! GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" Didnt you watch the stream? He DID play FOUR games. Are you dense? Now if only he hadn't admitted to throwing the game subsequently not even going to bother. you must be one of the advocates that the probe rush is a legitimate strategy in starcraft 2. it may not be a legitimate strategy in the sense that it could ever win (even though it could) but it definitely does not break any rules of the game. he entered the game -> used his strategy -> lost -> left the game. That's playing the game to me.
Now if only he hadn't subsequently admitted to throwing it (basically).
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On December 15 2011 03:29 Hellmutt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:27 Yaki wrote:On December 15 2011 03:23 DYEAlabaster wrote:
Yeah I'm pretty disappointed about this. I don't see the difference between what Nani did and what people do when they sixpool/cheese just to get the games out of the way. Neither matches are entertaining. At least Nani had the balls to say that he wasn't going to waste anyone's time.
Yeah, pretty upset over this choice, tbh You don't see the difference ? I'll tell you the difference. Unlike a sixpool/cheese, WHAT NANIWA DID HAD 0% WINNING CHANCE and he knew that from the beginnning. Thus, it is fair to say that he threw the game and deserves the punishment he got. Nothing has 0% of success. You have 2 account for such things as Nestea getting a heart attack before a-moving his drones, a meteor hitting Nestea and things like that. Even though the chance of such a thing happening is probably 0.0000000001% the chance is still there and thus it's not a 0% win strategy.
I... I don't even get the relevance of this post.
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On December 15 2011 03:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:29 Hellmutt wrote:
Nothing has 0% of success. You have 2 account for such things as Nestea getting a heart attack before a-moving his drones, a meteor hitting Nestea and things like that. Even though the chance of such a thing happening is probably 0.0000000001% the chance is still there and thus it's not a 0% win strategy. Could you please spare us this kind of nonsense?
Have a hard time dealing with FACTS huh?
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Look everyone. Playing in Korea and in the GSL is NOT a right. It is a PRIVILEGE. I'm sorry, I just don't sympathize with NaNiwa when people say, "oh he didn't want to play the last game, that is what 99% of other humans would do". No. He is essentially a professional athlete, competing at the highest level possible. There is no other sport in the world where leagues, players, teams and fans would tolerate, let alone condone this type of attitude and behavior. Imagine going to go see your hometown football (american or EU, doesn't matter which) team play, they haven't done great this season but hey, you still support them and want to see them play. But when the game starts, instead of playing they just forfeit, on the grounds that the game is meaningless in terms of winning a championship. That is simply just a poor attitude for a professional athlete and should be frowned upon by everyone who truly cares about the growth of the sport. Like I said before, Naniwa was given a great privilege to be able to compete in Korea and he should have respected that. The people in charge of GSL don't like his attitude and don't believe he is a good fit for GSL so they took that privilege away. I see no problem with this and in fact, I think it was the correct decision.
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On December 15 2011 03:30 LanTAs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:20 JoeSchmoe wrote:On December 15 2011 03:17 Wallstreet11 wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:08 diophan wrote:On December 15 2011 03:07 Master_Blaster wrote:
Not all warriors are Samurais so why make them harakiri even though they don't have the some principles of life? GOM is forcing the korean principles on StarCraft over the foreign scene and i don't actually like that.
You really think it's a Korean principle to, if you're paid to have people watch you play a game, actually make some attempt at playing the game? Actually they are not payed to play for us, but we pay to see them play. Quite a difference. And he played 100% when it mattered. PLEASE make this the thread topic! GOM paid him $850 to play 4 games in the group stages. he played 3. it's funny how people choose to blatantly ignore facts to mount a supposed "argument" You mean he earned his spot in the tournament by crushing nestea twice (once in MLG Global tournament) , HuK, and DRG? Then, GSL invited him for a free $850 for him to play how he wants in the tournament? This wasn't really all GSL's good will and shit, it was Nani's practice in korea for 3+ months and loosing hours of sleep to earn himself a spot in Code S and the Blizzard Cup.
man what are you even talking about? yeah he's "loosing" hours of sleep. you would know because you tuck him into bed every night? everyone in korea practices just as hard. it's the same thing for everyone. don't make try to sound like he's somehow more deserving than the other players.
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On December 15 2011 03:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:17 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 15 2011 03:05 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 02:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 15 2011 02:50 dp wrote:On December 15 2011 02:47 ToasteR_ wrote:On December 15 2011 02:45 dp wrote:
His personal view on the situation is irrelevant. For example, lets imagine he was invited to a show match where the winner takes $5,000 and the loser takes $2,500. What if his mindset that day is that he only needs $2,500, so the match is meaningless. He probe rushes 3 games outta 5, losing outright. The contract doesn't necessarily state that he has to TRY to win the matches to get paid. You think this is OK? Of a professional? Grow up. Your personal views on the situation don't matter. You are being paid to provide entertainment to fans. If you don't feel the need to do your job, there is a good chance you won't have one.
No one would be satisfied with $2500 when $5000 can be won, your example is terrible. Maybe you are confused. It doesn't matter what you think. Remember? Only what he thinks. Because the world revolves around his mindset. If you can't understand the point of my post, don't respond with mindless dribble. K, thanks, bye. Your analogy is still faulty. Naniwa always plays to win tournaments, and he doesn't care about entertaining audiences. That's the way he is. If he loses, he wants to move on. He doesn't care about pleasing the crowd. He doesn't have the greatest personality (which clearly hurts him in situations like this, as Huk wouldn't have been punished in an identical situation), but he cares about success. The point is that what Naniwa finds to be meaningless at the time is not relevant. He is there to do a job, whether he wants to or not doesn't matter. Whether the outcome matters is irrelavant. If I go to work today and no customers come in, my boss still has to pay he. He can't decide not to. Likewise if I go in tomorrow and don't work while there are customers there, he has the right to fire me. This is how the world works. His personal view on the situation at the time doesn't matter. He did his job. Even if he was contracted to play a game vs. Nestea regardless of their 0-3 records, he sat in the booth and started the game. It's not like he didn't show up. You don't like his strategy? You don't like the lack of entertainment? Tough luck. Plenty of people don't like cheese and all-in strategies any more than a worker rush; they consider not standard play "not even trying". You can't make a person try to win a game that has no meaning for them. He did what he needed to do. No. His job is not to show up. Go ahead, do that at your job. Show up, but don't actually do what you are required to. Go work as a cashier and ring up the first item of 1 person and then stop and sit there. Let me know how that works out for you. A cashier does not have the same job or job description as a pro-gamer, nor is a tournament that you've already lost at related in any way to your first few minutes at a daily job. I'm sorry, but your analogies are all terrible. I guarantee you that if HuK or Sheth or White-Ra or Boxer or any other player who's known for their outstanding personality did something like this in a game that didn't matter towards the outcome of a tournament, it would be brushed aside and no punishment would be given.
I guarantee that they will be treated exactly the same way as Naniwa was treated.
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EPT
