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On December 14 2011 21:48 Sleed wrote:
This is completely justified. People need to star understanding culture & context. What you can do in the West or in your home country may not be acceptable elsewhere.
Gom acted based on their context/culture, Korean were shocked, the punishment is fair, and Gom had no choice but to take actions.
Ok, then make it a korean only tournament, take the global out of the name and refuse foreign players if you are going to be shocked that cultures differ
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Wow, I really didnt think that he did anything wrong, but I suppose GSL really wants to seem legitimate.
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On December 14 2011 20:43 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:29 CryingPoo wrote:On December 14 2011 20:19 NHY wrote:
To the OP:
I assume that you don't read Korean. That rule is for when a player does something to "threaten" another player. So it is not applicable. More to the point, it doesn't matter what that rule says. It's there to give ground for DQ or warning in a match.
GOM always had a rule that said that they have a complete discretion as to who is allowed to play in GSL. You may not agree with the rule or it's application, but it's not like they made the rule up just to screw Naniwa. Threaten is the direct translation which wouldn't make any sense in the context with "during a match" I studied law and I know how Koreans use words to draft rules and conditions. Like I said, I am only translating and I did not make change the word to take anyone's side. Give me some examples, then I'll believe your interpretation. But the point is, that rule has nothing to do with what GOM did.
Don't believe my interpretation. I don't need to prove to you that I have a translation certificate. If you think you can do a better job and dedicate yourself to translate articles for free, go piss off and start translating some now and post it for people. Use your common sense why that word is not meaning "threaten" as a direct translation.
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can anyone actually link me to what he actually did? i'm not clear on this??
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funny is someone did a 12 drone rush it would be oke...
same way around if naniwa did win with a probe rush no-one would complain..
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On December 14 2011 22:03 hubfub wrote:
can anyone actually link me to what he actually did? i'm not clear on this??
He did a probe rush vs Nestea
since it didnt matter wether he would win or lose
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i think its a wrong move by gom (as i have explained in another thread before).
im not kidding anyone -i will still watch every game i can see on the free stream
but i definately lost respect.
there is no difference in a probe rush or a (in frustration executed) 4 gate.
if i recall correctly,stuff like this has happened before in different tournament,tho i dont know an example right now.
his 7 probe rush did not show any disrespect to nestea objectively. the game was worth nothing -
they both were 0 : 3 and it would be exeptional if there was a good game.
i think unless there is a rule explicitly called "dont throw games",you cant punish anyone for this.
(otherwise you would have to punish everyone who ever did a 6pool/4gate etc in such a game).
edit :
and - without any disrespect to the culture..not everything the koreans do is objectively right (or wrong) BECAUSE they are koreans ; respect for their culture is one thing,tolerance another.
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On December 14 2011 21:56 DrMosh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:48 Sleed wrote:
This is completely justified. People need to start understanding culture & context. What you can do in the West or in your home country may not be acceptable elsewhere.
Gom acted based on their context/culture, Korean were shocked, the punishment is fair, and Gom had no choice but to take actions.
Ok, then make it a korean only tournament, take the global out of the name and refuse foreign players if you are going to be shocked that cultures differ
It is a Korean tournament before being a global tournament, respect is REALLY important in Korea, Naniwa should have known it, but like always, when he loses he can barely control himself.
To be honest Gom made a lot of efforts to accommodate foreigners, like creating a house or giving code A and S spot that some of them would have never been able to qualify for. Naniwa benefited largely from that.
It is just for the next GSL, it will give Naniwa time to think and train harder.
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On December 14 2011 21:56 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:53 duracell wrote:
For everyone saying he had to rest, executing a 4 gate takes a couple minutes and almost no effort at all from someone who knows it in and out.
He didn't think through his actions, and should be punished for it. This can easily lead to negative exposure to sponsors, which greatly affect such a young esport. Whether he meant to or not, he is potentially causing monetary damage to GOM and they have every right to reprimand him in a way they see fit.
If he did the clearly appropriate thing, which was to play the game, he would not be punished whatsoever. Since he chose to make a murky action for whatever reason (lazy, emotional, trying to look cool, etc) he has to be prepared that there is a chance something can happen to him. What's the difference between a poorly executed 4gate to end the game asap and what he did? Essentially, there is no difference. The game was 100% meaningless and he was obvoiusly in a bad frame of mind from going out of the tournament. Hell, in previous iterations of GSL that match wouldn't have even been played.
The difference is that he is not blatantly disrespecting the organization. For a team that has clinched the top playoff spot, do they just not show up to the game or shoot halfcourt 3's or stand around, or do they at the least play B-level players or A-level players that don't try as hard?
Professionals know that there is a certain level of professionalism they must exhibit, even if there is no technical gain for them (except for lack of negative publicity, like this one) because fans have paid good money to see them play ahead of time. For athletes, even playing subpar, they risk the chance of injury just by playing the game. Naniwa risked nothing at all and still decided not to play the game, just because he is immature and did not see beyond the scope of himself.
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GSL is the premier SC2 tournament in the world. It is an honor to be there, dont act like you are doing someone a favor by being invited. Good job Mr. Chae and GOM.tv, this was totally justified.
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On December 14 2011 22:06 duracell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:56 Zechs wrote:On December 14 2011 21:53 duracell wrote:
For everyone saying he had to rest, executing a 4 gate takes a couple minutes and almost no effort at all from someone who knows it in and out.
He didn't think through his actions, and should be punished for it. This can easily lead to negative exposure to sponsors, which greatly affect such a young esport. Whether he meant to or not, he is potentially causing monetary damage to GOM and they have every right to reprimand him in a way they see fit.
If he did the clearly appropriate thing, which was to play the game, he would not be punished whatsoever. Since he chose to make a murky action for whatever reason (lazy, emotional, trying to look cool, etc) he has to be prepared that there is a chance something can happen to him. What's the difference between a poorly executed 4gate to end the game asap and what he did? Essentially, there is no difference. The game was 100% meaningless and he was obvoiusly in a bad frame of mind from going out of the tournament. Hell, in previous iterations of GSL that match wouldn't have even been played. The difference is that he is not blatantly disrespecting the organization. For a team that has clinched the top playoff spot, do they just not show up to the game or shoot halfcourt 3's or stand around, or do they at the least play B-level players or A-level players that don't try as hard? Professionals know that there is a certain level of professionalism they must exhibit, even if there is no technical gain for them (except for lack of negative publicity, like this one) because fans have paid good money to see them play ahead of time. For athletes, even playing subpar, they risk the chance of injury just by playing the game. Naniwa risked nothing at all and still decided not to play the game, just because he is immature and did not see beyond the scope of himself.
Traditional sporting analogies are deeply, deeply flawed and ethno-centric (I think i kinda know what a halfcourt 3 is though). But if you want to deal in those, look at the footblal as many, many people have mentioned. In a less important cup game, top teams will often send out youth team players. Is it a perfect analogy? No, but there isn't one. The fact is that sportsmen play below 100% all of the time and punishing Naniwa for doing it a little less tactfully is silly. Like i said, mule-dropping is far more offensive in my opinion and that happens in matches which actually matter, not irrelevant games where the winner is still eliminated.
Also, stop with this nonsense about "owing it to the fans." He doesn't owe you or me a thing.
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How is GOM acting unprofessional by disassociating with someone that acts unprofessional?
They are making a smart decision by realizing they have less to gain from having someone like Naniwa in their tournaments who potentially causes negative exposure and monetary damage from sponsors than from having him play in their tournaments. If he cleans up his act, I'm sure they'll welcome him back.
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Added a poll as many requested.
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On December 14 2011 22:07 CaptainCrush wrote:
GSL is the premier SC2 tournament in the world. It is an honor to be there, dont act like you are doing someone a favor by being invited. Good job Mr. Chae and GOM.tv, this was totally justified.
How is calling someone "amateur prize money hunter" justified?
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On December 14 2011 22:13 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:07 CaptainCrush wrote:
GSL is the premier SC2 tournament in the world. It is an honor to be there, dont act like you are doing someone a favor by being invited. Good job Mr. Chae and GOM.tv, this was totally justified. How is calling someone "amateur prize money hunter" justified?
Well maybe Professional Prize Money Hunter, but Naniwa is all about the big win. So its not out of left field.
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This whole episode has been blown way the fuck out of proportion in my opinion.
I could understand GOM.tv penalizing Naniwa for lack of sportmanship (?), but to take away his Code S seed - and those things are damn hard to get - and banning from participating in the next season of GSL? Too harsh imo.
Edit: GSL, not GLS.
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Completely support gom`s decision, naniwa`s disrespected nestea, the fans and sponsors. hopefully naniwa learns that his antics arent acceptable from a professional
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Regardless of the situation Naniwa should have acted professionally. That being said I don't think he wasn't justified in doing what he did he was definitely upset with his prior performances so why would he want to be a spectacle of? Understandable action from GOM they are selling passes to watch these events and if a player abuses his position to take that away from them surely he deserves punishment (granted GOM shouldn't have given him that position). There are plenty of other players to fill the spot, he dug his own grave.
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On December 14 2011 22:10 Zechs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:06 duracell wrote:On December 14 2011 21:56 Zechs wrote:On December 14 2011 21:53 duracell wrote:
For everyone saying he had to rest, executing a 4 gate takes a couple minutes and almost no effort at all from someone who knows it in and out.
He didn't think through his actions, and should be punished for it. This can easily lead to negative exposure to sponsors, which greatly affect such a young esport. Whether he meant to or not, he is potentially causing monetary damage to GOM and they have every right to reprimand him in a way they see fit.
If he did the clearly appropriate thing, which was to play the game, he would not be punished whatsoever. Since he chose to make a murky action for whatever reason (lazy, emotional, trying to look cool, etc) he has to be prepared that there is a chance something can happen to him. What's the difference between a poorly executed 4gate to end the game asap and what he did? Essentially, there is no difference. The game was 100% meaningless and he was obvoiusly in a bad frame of mind from going out of the tournament. Hell, in previous iterations of GSL that match wouldn't have even been played. The difference is that he is not blatantly disrespecting the organization. For a team that has clinched the top playoff spot, do they just not show up to the game or shoot halfcourt 3's or stand around, or do they at the least play B-level players or A-level players that don't try as hard? Professionals know that there is a certain level of professionalism they must exhibit, even if there is no technical gain for them (except for lack of negative publicity, like this one) because fans have paid good money to see them play ahead of time. For athletes, even playing subpar, they risk the chance of injury just by playing the game. Naniwa risked nothing at all and still decided not to play the game, just because he is immature and did not see beyond the scope of himself. Traditional sporting analogies are deeply, deeply flawed and ethno-centric (I think i kinda know what a halfcourt 3 is though). But if you want to deal in those, look at the footblal as many, many people have mentioned. In a less important cup game, top teams will often send out youth team players. Is it a perfect analogy? No, but there isn't one. The fact is that sportsmen play below 100% all of the time and punishing Naniwa for doing it a little less tactfully is silly. Like i said, mule-dropping is far more offensive in my opinion and that happens in matches which actually matter, not irrelevant games where the winner is still eliminated. Also, stop with this nonsense about "owing it to the fans." He doesn't owe you or me a thing.
Like I said, playing below par is completely accepted. You can send youth players all you want. If Nani did a half hearted 4 gate, there would be no controversy or punishment. Except he did worse than that. He did the equivalent of stand around and kick the ball if it got near him, but otherwise let the other team score at will.
Nobody asked him to play 100%, but he should not have played 0% either. There is a way to be tactful and respectful to the organization that is offering you something.
In general, I agree with players owing nothing to fans. However, Nani needed to play the game not only for the fans, but for GOM. Blizzard Cup is probably the most expensive event that GOM has charged for at $10/$20 for so few matches. GOM is inadvertently selling us the promise of fantastic games by inviting the 10 best performing players in the world, and the customer is clearly expecting at the least an above average set of games. Nani did not help the situation by throwing the game completely, and did GOM a huge disfavor. He should be punished if GOM thinks he did monetary damage to them.
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On December 14 2011 22:03 prutz wrote:
funny is someone did a 12 drone rush it would be oke...
same way around if naniwa did win with a probe rush no-one would complain..
As far as I know the 12 Drone rush was only used on Steppes of War because the map was imbalanced like all hell for Terran, Zerg really didn't have a chance on that map if the Terran did anything like 2Rax (with or without SCVs), 6Rax, or even Mech because the Tanks and Thors would arrive at the Zergs main so fast. But I don't believe any of these builds were used back when Steppes was in. I could be wrong though.
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EPT
