|
On December 14 2011 13:45 MannerMan wrote:
Protoss players have been dealing with medivacs for all of SC2, terran players are just now adjusting (especially at the lower levels) to warp prism play. I think the difference in perception is because of familiarity.
Only because Terran have needed to use drops or some form of harass in order to stay close to even with Protoss. Drops are one of the effective methods of harass Terran have. Protoss on the other hand has never even needed to use Prisms to stay ahead. Protoss players themselves were complaining about how useless the prism was and how collosus production couldn't be sacrificed. Protoss players were content with simply playing defensive while macroing and teching aggressively. And why not, it was a highly effective and still is a highly effective way to play PvT. Protoss are now just realizing how much more powerful the race is by using pheonix and prisms for harass.
|
On December 14 2011 13:38 chrusher97 wrote:
For sure its because of TvP, When I lose TvT or TvZ I always know why I lost and what I did wrong, with protoss its like theres nothing you can do, im Grandmaster player btw.
try to realize how hard it is to 1 rax expand and survive a hardcore voidray allin, or even worse the 4 gate robo blink allin, especially on maps with a long walk between your natural and the blink spot ( Antiga shipyards for example).
Also try to remember how many times youve seen a 2 base protoss just walk up to 3-5 bunkers and forcefield, maybe even with some immortals thrown in. You pull scvs but they just walk in circles at the edge of the ff along with your marines who cant hit the stalkers but are getting hit.
Then once you do survive all that your still not ahead, your just even with the protoss, who is going to camp until he gets colossus charge or storm, and then move out a little bit and take his third, then camp some more until hes maxed and got whatever tech ( colossus / storm ) he didnt get earlier, and then hes gonna go kill you.
Also nobody drops anymore. All protosses just sit in their base with a handful of zealots / sentries in their natural, which is somehow able to stop an infinite amount of terran units, while their stalkers patrol the edge of their base. If you try to drop they focus both medivacs, you lose 20 supply, then you've lost the game. Its possible to drop when the toss is on 3+ bases but by that point youve lost already, also a couple cannons + warp in a couple zealots = drops do nothing.
Seriously if it wasnt for 1/1/1 and toss having to consider the possibility of cloak, terran would probably have a 25% winrate.
well said sir well said
top 15 masters terran and tvp is just nightmare right now
don't kill protoss b4 late game = chargelot a move u have to kite well a few storm and collosi just kill u
if u forgot to micro ur vikings while kiting zealots = stalkers right no top of them with a few storm = 30 supply evaporates ><
i think i am gonna practice 1 1 1 believe it or not i never used it once against p since it is so ez to win and i want a challenge but this is just getting ridiculous><
once i killed his natural early game with a 2 rax with losing 1 marine 1 maraduer then expand(couldn't kill him cuz he made sentries ><)
result = 6 bunkers getting busted by 3 immortal with sentries and a lot of zealots >< ff = so much for repair ><
|
On December 14 2011 13:38 chrusher97 wrote:
For sure its because of TvP, When I lose TvT or TvZ I always know why I lost and what I did wrong, with protoss its like theres nothing you can do, im Grandmaster player btw.
try to realize how hard it is to 1 rax expand and survive a hardcore voidray allin, or even worse the 4 gate robo blink allin, especially on maps with a long walk between your natural and the blink spot ( Antiga shipyards for example).
Also try to remember how many times youve seen a 2 base protoss just walk up to 3-5 bunkers and forcefield, maybe even with some immortals thrown in. You pull scvs but they just walk in circles at the edge of the ff along with your marines who cant hit the stalkers but are getting hit.
Then once you do survive all that your still not ahead, your just even with the protoss, who is going to camp until he gets colossus charge or storm, and then move out a little bit and take his third, then camp some more until hes maxed and got whatever tech ( colossus / storm ) he didnt get earlier, and then hes gonna go kill you.
Also nobody drops anymore. All protosses just sit in their base with a handful of zealots / sentries in their natural, which is somehow able to stop an infinite amount of terran units, while their stalkers patrol the edge of their base. If you try to drop they focus both medivacs, you lose 20 supply, then you've lost the game. Its possible to drop when the toss is on 3+ bases but by that point youve lost already, also a couple cannons + warp in a couple zealots = drops do nothing.
Seriously if it wasnt for 1/1/1 and toss having to consider the possibility of cloak, terran would probably have a 25% winrate.
Once Protoss gets Templar and Collosi, you're dead in the water unless he fucked up big time in the mid game.
Passive tech turtle is how every Protoss is getting their win right now, and it's working.
Unlike Zergs vs Mech, we don't have Broodlords or Ultralisks because they can be feedback'd. Ghosts and Vikings eat into your supply so much it's hard to find the correct balance so you won't die from Collosi, Templar, or not having enough MMM.
|
I really don't like the lack of terrans on ladder
I always feel like my best games were against terran with all of my races, and yes I played each race for one season and loved facing terrans, I wish they would all come back.
|
essentially to win in the master / GM level, you need very high apm and really good micro as terran.
Otherwise there is no way you can beat a toss who just 1A and spam forcefields. or spam storms.... even without forcefields and storms .. chargelots and collosus melt terran bio. In order for terran to stay ahead, they need to macro better and drop all over the place to deal dmg to the toss. I suggest terrans practicing the two thor rush that MMA did vs naniwa today. Two thors, reactor marine and 80% of ur scvs to heal ur thors and build bunkers.
Polt did a much harder all in but one base 2 rax into medivac play is pretty good in high diamond / low master play. Just remember to use ur factory for vision at their ramp. Drop one / two medivacs into the base far away from their army , don't lose the medivacs , kill some pylons / buildings load up and push the front again.
|
On December 14 2011 14:11 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:45 MannerMan wrote:
Protoss players have been dealing with medivacs for all of SC2, terran players are just now adjusting (especially at the lower levels) to warp prism play. I think the difference in perception is because of familiarity. Only because Terran have needed to use drops or some form of harass in order to stay close to even with Protoss. Drops are one of the effective methods of harass Terran have. Protoss on the other hand has never even needed to use Prisms to stay ahead. Protoss players themselves were complaining about how useless the prism was and how collosus production couldn't be sacrificed. Protoss players were content with simply playing defensive while macroing and teching aggressively. And why not, it was a highly effective and still is a highly effective way to play PvT. Protoss are now just realizing how much more powerful the race is by using pheonix and prisms for harass.
I feel it's worth pointing out that the warp prism was a death trap before. It's nick name was the paper plane.
I remember before the WP buff went into PTR tyler commenting on it and saying it should get a buff to maybe 100 shields to make it viable and get people using it. Very similar to the archon range buff. It wasn't that people hadn't used archons before, they just sucked with range 2 and being non-massive.
|
On December 14 2011 13:38 chrusher97 wrote:
For sure its because of TvP, When I lose TvT or TvZ I always know why I lost and what I did wrong, with protoss its like theres nothing you can do, im Grandmaster player btw.
try to realize how hard it is to 1 rax expand and survive a hardcore voidray allin, or even worse the 4 gate robo blink allin, especially on maps with a long walk between your natural and the blink spot ( Antiga shipyards for example).
Also try to remember how many times youve seen a 2 base protoss just walk up to 3-5 bunkers and forcefield, maybe even with some immortals thrown in. You pull scvs but they just walk in circles at the edge of the ff along with your marines who cant hit the stalkers but are getting hit.
Then once you do survive all that your still not ahead, your just even with the protoss, who is going to camp until he gets colossus charge or storm, and then move out a little bit and take his third, then camp some more until hes maxed and got whatever tech ( colossus / storm ) he didnt get earlier, and then hes gonna go kill you.
Also nobody drops anymore. All protosses just sit in their base with a handful of zealots / sentries in their natural, which is somehow able to stop an infinite amount of terran units, while their stalkers patrol the edge of their base. If you try to drop they focus both medivacs, you lose 20 supply, then you've lost the game. Its possible to drop when the toss is on 3+ bases but by that point youve lost already, also a couple cannons + warp in a couple zealots = drops do nothing.
Seriously if it wasnt for 1/1/1 and toss having to consider the possibility of cloak, terran would probably have a 25% winrate.
Well said. My friend and I have talked about this a lot and we both agree with your first statement. I lose to Zergs and Terrans all the time and I even find myself having more difficulty against zerg recently but I can at least review the games and see where I played poorly or he outplayed me.
|
I'm a former P player switched to T, so that's +1 terran. Got to say it feels nice. 3 MUs where you can play interesting macro games and plenty of variety in those MUs makes laddering a lot more fun!
|
Yea, TvP is no surpise a biggie here. If you look at the strat forum posts over the last few months you can find an overwhleming amount of TvP help threads across all leagues compared to other MU's.
TvZ is easier at Master/GM level, but still very hard now a days compared to where the meta game was at Late spring/early summer. Now with Reactor/Hellion into double expoing being standard you are always playing longer games with the Z which favors him at a non-pro level mechanic wise.
Overall, I find T very hard to play, the amount of army control/macro/positioning/ combined with stutter stepping every single unit the entire game is pretty hard.
I think T is in a bad spot for Master/diamond players. At a high master level I find myself still not having the mechanics to meet the demands of a macro Terran style.
|
On December 14 2011 14:20 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 14:11 SupLilSon wrote:On December 14 2011 13:45 MannerMan wrote:
Protoss players have been dealing with medivacs for all of SC2, terran players are just now adjusting (especially at the lower levels) to warp prism play. I think the difference in perception is because of familiarity. Only because Terran have needed to use drops or some form of harass in order to stay close to even with Protoss. Drops are one of the effective methods of harass Terran have. Protoss on the other hand has never even needed to use Prisms to stay ahead. Protoss players themselves were complaining about how useless the prism was and how collosus production couldn't be sacrificed. Protoss players were content with simply playing defensive while macroing and teching aggressively. And why not, it was a highly effective and still is a highly effective way to play PvT. Protoss are now just realizing how much more powerful the race is by using pheonix and prisms for harass. I feel it's worth pointing out that the warp prism was a death trap before. It's nick name was the paper plane. I remember before the WP buff went into PTR tyler commenting on it and saying it should get a buff to maybe 100 shields to make it viable and get people using it. Very similar to the archon range buff. It wasn't that people hadn't used archons before, they just sucked with range 2 and being non-massive.
Yea, I guess I did forget they were worse back then. But with the speed upgrade they are so fast and considering they don't cost any gas, I still feel like protoss overlooked a potential harassment tool. Some toss like socke had used the prism before it got buffed. Not to mention the prism has ridiculous potential in conjunction with warpgate.
|
Terran is weaker than it's ever been in Starcraft 2. It is difficult to argue this.
|
Honestly I think T has just been played the most since the beginning. I play Terran, and I recall many TvTs during Beta and the early stages of release, though at the time I was in those lower leagues mentioned in the OP. Compare that to now, when TvT is the match up I play the least by far in masters league, it seems like a lot of people have switched.
|
IMO, Terran macro is harder. A good indicator of this is the production tab. Look at the amount of unique cards terran builds compared to Z/P. T is ahead in this category for the entirety of a game. We have a lot more things we can miss and we don't have the benefit of "instant macro," aka holding down the Z button. Queuing is the worst thing you can do as T. Knowing the correct number of buildings that can support your current economy and actually make full use out of those buildings is more than your typical diamond-master player can handle.
T is only boring if you play it that way. Try a multi-pronged attack, or deception tactics. But those actually require skill.
|
I can't believe this thread made it this far when it was based on a flawed argument that has no basis in the statistics from the website cited. Check the stats from sc2ranks.com:
This is the racial distribution for the current patch (1.41):
Random ---------------- Protoss --------------------- Terran --------------------- Zerg
9.2% (66,582) ------ 32.4% (233,662) -------- 31.6% (227,962) ------- 26.8% (193,827)
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all
This is the racial distribution from 1.03
Random ---------------- Protoss --------------------- Terran --------------------- Zerg
8.1% (97,976) ------ 36.0% (437,878) -------- 36.8% (447,369) ------- 19.1% (231,914)
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all/0/103
Random and Zerg have become more popular, at the expense of Terran and Protoss. Furthermore that has been the trend for nearly every patch, Zerg and Random grow, while Terran and Protoss shrink. Finally in all patches, Terran players have always been the prevalent race in Bronze (check it: Current patch: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Oldest: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all/0/103).
You can also check every patch in between with the links I gave.
There is no significant difference between the patches except to say what I already said, that Zerg and Random have slowly become more popular, at the expense of Terran and Protoss. Terran is not vanishing from the ladder, at least not anymore than Protoss has been.
Please close this thread.
|
Wow the Terran whinning in this thread is pathetic. If you're going to claim Terran is UP (which is absolutely is not), at least try to provide some evidence.
|
On December 14 2011 14:29 Moosy wrote:
Terran is weaker than it's ever been in Starcraft 2. It is difficult to argue this.
yes, but it's also finally balanced. The game is now getting close to being balanced, and I think people are finding that while they once used to win easily with maybe some strats that were either OP or that people just didn't know how to counter, now it's not the case anymore and so a lot of them are complaining that their race or strate are underpowered now, when in reality they may have had their MMR inflated by said strategies being too powerful.
|
On December 14 2011 14:34 LRObot wrote:
IMO, Terran macro is harder. A good indicator of this is the production tab. Look at the amount of unique cards terran builds compared to Z/P. T is ahead in this category for the entirety of a game. We have a lot more things we can miss and we don't have the benefit of "instant macro," aka holding down the Z button. Queuing is the worst thing you can do as T. Knowing the correct number of buildings that can support your current economy and actually make full use out of those buildings is more than your typical diamond-master player can handle.
T is only boring if you play it that way. Try a multi-pronged attack, or deception tactics. But those actually require skill.
Warpgate units basically don't appear in the production tab, don't let its length fool you.
|
I've been terran since beta and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg too (I'm masters atm).
|
Terran it up for life. HotS will also begin a new metagame, anyway.
|
I think its cause everyone rages at Terran I for one am getting sick of it. It is mostly from zerg players as they are generally more angry people. It has come to the point where saying terran is ur race is frowned upon and the zerg and protoss are "cooler".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
