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On December 14 2011 13:17 aviator116 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:06 Ubenn wrote:On December 14 2011 12:55 MannerMan wrote:
I don't think terran micro is nearly as difficult as people think it is. Protoss and zergs have been playing against a really strong terran for a long time now though, so they are super adapted to the standard style of kiting and splitting, so now that terran is back in line the middle levels are seeing a huge shift.
Terran players need to look within :p Because Z or P have anything like splitting marines against banes. You're dumb. because terran has anything like laying down storms and feedbacks before greater range emps or blinking stalkers, or collosi micro, or FFs. whassup. micro occurs for all 3 races.
Thanks for proving that I'm correct. Ghost=HT's. Blink stalkers lol... Colossi micro really and FF's... Try to split marines and get destroyed until you are MVP you have no idea what you're talking about and it's clear by your examples.
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I've wanted to switch from terran to zerg forever. But i'm always afraid of starting over. Zerg just seems so much more mobile and fast, and I'd prefer that kind of playstyle.
Also, it doesn't help that the throughout the history of this game people constantly have belittled terran skill by calling them the OP race and whining about marines. It's finally settled down now, but half a year ago it was pretty bad. Especially if you ever visited the bnet forums. People really hated terran
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On December 14 2011 13:09 Ubenn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:03 Kharnage wrote:On December 14 2011 12:59 Bonkerz wrote:On December 14 2011 10:48 Darpa wrote:
Its easier to be good at lower levels with Protoss and to a lesser extent zerg, because micro is so much easier with those races.
PVT is an awful matchup below masters.
Zerg seems to be the flavor of the month (Terran was when the game released)
But I think the simple most obvious reasons are two fold: 1. A ton of players played terran at launch, got bored and swithced. 2. You need to be relentlessly aggressive with terran at higher levels. Alot of players dont have the skills to do that and ,like to turtle to macro, which is far more effective for each of the other races. (i.e. you lose alot until you get good at being aggressive). PVT is still an aweful matchup even at masters, bc terran army not cost efficient lategame, 1 bad engage and it's gg. Yeah, protoss can recover from a bad engage lategame easily *rolls eyes* Warp in 10 Zealots after big engagement, rader's either die or end up kiting for 3 minutes.
Assuming I have a warp prism close enough, the resources in the bank, 10 gates not on cool down and then my 10 zealots can attack your planetary fortress 4th base which will do .... fuck all.
But I do agree in principle, the warp in mechanism means protoss can reinforce faster. If the end-game has gone on long enough for protoss to get say 20 gates and a HUGE bank then they can win with that.
But that requires a long period of inactivity on the terrans part who will 'in general' hit 200 supply faster than protoss and should be looking to force an engagement then while protoss is sitting on 160ish. Whenever I see a pro terran hit 200 and just sort of move around the map without building more production facilities OR attacking into the protoss I think "yup, protoss gonna win this one"
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On December 14 2011 13:26 itkovian wrote:
I've wanted to switch from terran to zerg forever. But i'm always afraid of starting over. Zerg just seems so much more mobile and fast, and I'd prefer that kind of playstyle.
My feelings exactly. I might just go bite the bullet and spend another $60 after christmas for a second account, this way it won't feel like starting over, it will just feel like starting.
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On December 14 2011 13:27 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:09 Ubenn wrote:On December 14 2011 13:03 Kharnage wrote:On December 14 2011 12:59 Bonkerz wrote:On December 14 2011 10:48 Darpa wrote:
Its easier to be good at lower levels with Protoss and to a lesser extent zerg, because micro is so much easier with those races.
PVT is an awful matchup below masters.
Zerg seems to be the flavor of the month (Terran was when the game released)
But I think the simple most obvious reasons are two fold: 1. A ton of players played terran at launch, got bored and swithced. 2. You need to be relentlessly aggressive with terran at higher levels. Alot of players dont have the skills to do that and ,like to turtle to macro, which is far more effective for each of the other races. (i.e. you lose alot until you get good at being aggressive). PVT is still an aweful matchup even at masters, bc terran army not cost efficient lategame, 1 bad engage and it's gg. Yeah, protoss can recover from a bad engage lategame easily *rolls eyes* Warp in 10 Zealots after big engagement, rader's either die or end up kiting for 3 minutes. Assuming I have a warp prism close enough, the resources in the bank, 10 gates not on cool down and then my 10 zealots can attack your planetary fortress 4th base which will do .... fuck all. But I do agree in principle, the warp in mechanism means protoss can reinforce faster. If the end-game has gone on long enough for protoss to get say 20 gates and a HUGE bank then they can win with that. But that requires a long period of inactivity on the terrans part who will 'in general' hit 200 supply faster than protoss and should be looking to force an engagement then while protoss is sitting on 160ish. Whenever I see a pro terran hit 200 and just sort of move around the map without building more production facilities OR attacking into the protoss I think "yup, protoss gonna win this one"
There lies the problem.
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On December 14 2011 13:22 Ubenn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:16 LedFarmer wrote:
I actually switched from Zerg to Terran, for me I liked the flexible nature of Terran, I also try and play macro games, hardly ever stay on one base and don't ever 1-1-1 a Protoss.
I feel it's the most rewarding race to play late game, the multitasking macro/micro of late game especially in regards to late game.
Also I feel like Terran have more crisp timing attacks then any other race that pay off to have them really refined.
Zerg and Protoss are also a lot of fun, but when it comes down to it I like the micro of bio/drops leap frogging of tanks, and production cycles, something that Zerg and Protoss can't really satisfy me with.
Also my favorite players all play Terran, SlayerSMMA, IMMvp, STBomber are all great Terran role models for me to try and emulate.
I think one thing that might effect the reason you don't see as many Terrans on NA and EU is because you don't really have any great Terran names that come out of those regions, ( in comparison to Top level Korean players) where as with Protoss you have Huk/WhiteRa/Naniwa and Zerg Stephano/Idra that players can look to from their home servers.
That is my take on it at least. This has got to be a lie. You enjoy leap-frogging tanks?
I enjoy the methodical push, the calculated positioning, of course other races have this aspect too, but I seem to enjoy it with Terran more.
I am sorry if you think I was trolling, I clearly am not.
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i tried to switch from P to T but TvP is really hard for me...and i don't like how you have to go mmmg
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zerg- drone drone drone .. defend defend .. drone drone muta harrass the fuck out of you- defend - teir 3 - GG yes
toss- 4 gate or 3gate stargate or 3 gate robo or dt rush and WIN - tech up get a deathball move out GG YES
terran - no map control not knowing when your gonna be attacked or not, hardest macro mechanics in the game, scan vs mules other wise its very hard to scout, requires alot of multitasking or else you end up with 1k+ min that you cant really chrono boost out or use and extra hatch unless you wanna add more production. requires the most hotkey usage. no late game units . nerf every patch everyone hates you calls you OP you could all in but its not fun to do it over and over. we cant even complain about balance because people can just go HEY the best player is terran!
for every1 complaining about terran balance =.= switch to the race and ladder with it. theres a reason why no1 on ladder play this god damn race in master
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On December 14 2011 13:29 Ubenn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 13:27 Kharnage wrote:On December 14 2011 13:09 Ubenn wrote:On December 14 2011 13:03 Kharnage wrote:On December 14 2011 12:59 Bonkerz wrote:On December 14 2011 10:48 Darpa wrote:
Its easier to be good at lower levels with Protoss and to a lesser extent zerg, because micro is so much easier with those races.
PVT is an awful matchup below masters.
Zerg seems to be the flavor of the month (Terran was when the game released)
But I think the simple most obvious reasons are two fold: 1. A ton of players played terran at launch, got bored and swithced. 2. You need to be relentlessly aggressive with terran at higher levels. Alot of players dont have the skills to do that and ,like to turtle to macro, which is far more effective for each of the other races. (i.e. you lose alot until you get good at being aggressive). PVT is still an aweful matchup even at masters, bc terran army not cost efficient lategame, 1 bad engage and it's gg. Yeah, protoss can recover from a bad engage lategame easily *rolls eyes* Warp in 10 Zealots after big engagement, rader's either die or end up kiting for 3 minutes. Assuming I have a warp prism close enough, the resources in the bank, 10 gates not on cool down and then my 10 zealots can attack your planetary fortress 4th base which will do .... fuck all. But I do agree in principle, the warp in mechanism means protoss can reinforce faster. If the end-game has gone on long enough for protoss to get say 20 gates and a HUGE bank then they can win with that. But that requires a long period of inactivity on the terrans part who will 'in general' hit 200 supply faster than protoss and should be looking to force an engagement then while protoss is sitting on 160ish. Whenever I see a pro terran hit 200 and just sort of move around the map without building more production facilities OR attacking into the protoss I think "yup, protoss gonna win this one" There lies the problem.
i'm sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but where is the problem? Forcing the engagement? Why? Protoss turtles?
(genuine question, not beng a smart arse)
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I can speak about mid-high master league,
I'm Protoss, but i played random a lot. I always seen the Terrans slightly favoured versus Protoss, Protoss versus Zerg and Zerg versus Terrans, but maybe it depends of gamestyle of players. I have good APM and I like aggressive korean style.
If u analyze the Terran gameplay, it's true that the late game is hard, but the early-mid game is more easy.
The topic is: Terrans vanishing from the ladder. Well, that depends of gamestyles or other factors, that not corrispond with the percentage win ratio or with the overall balance of the game.
If we speak about overall balance. With the patch 1.4 and removing the close positions in the maps, the game seems more balanced, but general gameplay is not really fixed, because all three races should to be strong in early, mid and late game.
At high korean level (GSL, Korean Cups), protoss seems slightly weak yet, terran and zerg seem both good instead.
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On December 14 2011 11:38 Supamang wrote:
Finally, we have a Terran tears thread.
Its been Zerg tears from the very beginning of beta till recently it was more about Protoss tears. Now Terran has joined in as well. Lets all just cry about how we all have to work "2 or 3 times harder than other races just to stand a chance". I think Ive heard that line said for all 3 races now and its kind of tiring.
Im tempted to switch back to Terran just to see if its as hard as people in this thread make it out to be. I switched from Terran to Zerg because of the same whiny crap that was going on all over the SC2 community, just to see how "hard" it was for Zerg players.
Honestly I think people just need to figure things out. There have been countless examples of people bitching and moaning about how impossible things are for a certain race just to have some top level pros figure out some nuances that cause them to be dominant. Then some other race starts bitching about the exact same shit. Don't people ever learn?
YES
This is exactly on the money!
The 'Crying' mindset is so pointless, people need to realize that there is no "eZ race" you have to work hard to win at this game no matter what, simple as that.
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On December 14 2011 13:26 itkovian wrote:
I've wanted to switch from terran to zerg forever. But i'm always afraid of starting over. Zerg just seems so much more mobile and fast, and I'd prefer that kind of playstyle.
Also, it doesn't help that the throughout the history of this game people constantly have belittled terran skill by calling them the OP race and whining about marines. It's finally settled down now, but half a year ago it was pretty bad. Especially if you ever visited the bnet forums. People really hated terran
I don't think it helps that terran has by far the most one-base allins. I played about 20 ladder games today, and while to be honest I haven't played in about a month due to school so I lost to just about everything, I think out of about 10 PvT, 8 of them involved some sort of one base allin. Only 2 that I can recall involved terran actually putting down a command centre. I think that's where terran gets their bad reputation from, because they absolutely can win a macro game. It's just the vast majority prefer to end the game in under 10 minutes with X+scv's.
On the topic of terran vanishing, I don't think so. They absolutely can win macro games. Every race is easier or harder to play to varying degrees. Protoss has a vulnerable early game in exchange for arguably the strongest late game. Terran is solid all round, but is mechanically taxing, and zerg macro mechanics are just harder.
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Personally, Playing Terran for me is really stressful and sometimes boring. So, I keep switching between Random and Terran. Not getting better at either. T_T
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banelings are just to frustrating for low level players to go bio in tvz so many switch from t to z it seems. TvT can be very frustrating for the players who don't understand the match-up or just dont have the patience. Tvp is the matchup im having trouble with lately simply because of how popular warp-prisms have become.
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For sure its because of TvP, When I lose TvT or TvZ I always know why I lost and what I did wrong, with protoss its like theres nothing you can do, im Grandmaster player btw.
try to realize how hard it is to 1 rax expand and survive a hardcore voidray allin, or even worse the 4 gate robo blink allin, especially on maps with a long walk between your natural and the blink spot ( Antiga shipyards for example).
Also try to remember how many times youve seen a 2 base protoss just walk up to 3-5 bunkers and forcefield, maybe even with some immortals thrown in. You pull scvs but they just walk in circles at the edge of the ff along with your marines who cant hit the stalkers but are getting hit.
Then once you do survive all that your still not ahead, your just even with the protoss, who is going to camp until he gets colossus charge or storm, and then move out a little bit and take his third, then camp some more until hes maxed and got whatever tech ( colossus / storm ) he didnt get earlier, and then hes gonna go kill you.
Also nobody drops anymore. All protosses just sit in their base with a handful of zealots / sentries in their natural, which is somehow able to stop an infinite amount of terran units, while their stalkers patrol the edge of their base. If you try to drop they focus both medivacs, you lose 20 supply, then you've lost the game. Its possible to drop when the toss is on 3+ bases but by that point youve lost already, also a couple cannons + warp in a couple zealots = drops do nothing.
Seriously if it wasnt for 1/1/1 and toss having to consider the possibility of cloak, terran would probably have a 25% winrate.
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On December 14 2011 11:15 HypernovA wrote:
Why have I stopped playing this game?
- I'm tired of having to work 2 or 3 times harder than most of my opponents (high diamond level).
- I'm tired of being flamed if I win because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of being called a bad player because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of people calling me a cheesy abuser if I use units like cloaked banshees, or hellions openings.
- I'm tired of people flaming Terran players who win tournaments in situations where clearly the Terran player was the superior player.
- I'm tired of receiving help answer like "LOL DUDE, MAKE MORE MARINES. Can't make more MMM against Protoss? Wow you suck."
There. I said it. The community is very negative toward Terran players in General and this has caused me to stop playing and only watch games.
Word. I don't agree with point 1, but 2 and 3 very much so.
I COMPLETELY out played a protoss the other day, bunker rushing his nexus first with 1 scv, marine, and reaper off of ONE rax, holding his warp prism push and sniping his prism full of units, and ultimately pushing into his nat with 2/1 bio/viking/ghost to his 0/0 gateway/storm/colo. He actually had the never to say "terran is ridiculous"
Continuous nerfs, lack of a strong late game, lack of respect when I win.
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I started off as Terran, but I disliked the actual playstyle of Terran, so I switched around Toss and Zerg for awhile, I don't think Terran is vanishing from the ladder, because you still see a lot of them at my level (High plat, low diamond), but I will agree that if you check the GM ladder Terran is getting really scarce at the top of NA.
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crybaby's switch races all the time.
Been a Zergy since launch. you wanna talk about hard, try playing Vanilla zerg.
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At release, I played terran for a couple months, then I switched to zerg and enjoyed it a lot more. Then I realized that my heart lies within the dominion, so I returned. I personally think terran is the most fun, but I also that that zerg was back when i played them.
I don't think anyone should choose their race based on balance.
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All of the discussion of the ease of reinforcement is a complete moot point unless we are talking about 200/200 scenarios, which is the only time of the game where terran is at a large disadvantage. Being terran in SC2 is like playing against it in SC1, if you let them split the map and play a gigantic macro game you will probably lose due to more cost effective armies and faster 200/200 reloads.
I feel like the poster I most agree with is the one who said P and Z needed a buff rather than T needing nerfs. Terran had tons of options prior to their nerfs, and it left P and Z on the back foot all the time, if they gave P and Z some more abuse-able strategies it might have resulted in more balanced play.
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EPT
