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On December 14 2011 12:57 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:53 ZenithM wrote:On December 14 2011 12:51 aTnClouD wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 ZenithM wrote:
One thing bothers me though. While I can understand ClouD's take on this (he's at the top EU level after all), most of the random ladder Terrans have a 50% winrate (thanks to Blizzard), and they don't play other Terrans because there is no terran player (supposedly).
So how come you can all state that your race is the hardest? You win 50% of your matches, don't you? You say that "this" or "that" is fucking hard for terran, but you still win games in the end. I mean, I would say "Protoss is fucking easy OLOLOL", I would still lose 50% of my matches, so I can't really be convinced that Protoss is that easy. that happens because in the end you get to play people at your level no matter how hard or easy your race or the others are. it's not like the hardest race at the lower levels gets more losses, they just fight even with overall "worse" players. Yeah but that's my point. How can you say for sure that you play "worse" players? I play Protoss. Do I have to convince myself that I play "better" players constantly? you just realize it, if a player is worse you can notice. they don't watch minimap as well as you, they can't multitask as well as you, they cant produce for a long time while attacking, they draw less often attention away from your expansions so they can deal eco damage. all things common to every race make you notice how good or bad another player is compared to you no matter what he plays.
I agree with all that, that would be generally how I quickly say if someone is good or bad.
I highly doubt everybody in this thread is looking at the same things you do, though. Seems to me that it's a combination of "zealots don't die", "banelings kill marines fast", "I must think of doing drops :'(", the usual business.
I just doubt that every ladder Terran is an APM gosu and STILL loses to every single P/Z like this thread suggests.
And mind you, I'm not at all on the side of "Lol Terran is fine", I definitely think that Terran is harder, but I also think that it's the most powerful race if placed in the most powerful hands, and several things do confirm that for me.
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T is hard at high master/GM. Personally (anecdotally) TvZ is a nightmare and TvP is difficult past midgame for me (random high masters).
Never understood the people complaining about T 'OP'. Might be at GSL Code S (or Gold and below) level, but it sure as hell is not for the vast majority of people out there.
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Because douchebags bash on terran players for no reason.
Also because terran is the hardest race to play at the upper levels.
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On December 14 2011 13:13 tuho12345 wrote:
There's no such race is harder. Terran require more skill and multitasking doesn't make Protoss easier.
Lol, "requires more skill" seems closely related to being harder.
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this goes for me personally,
there aren't too many terran "role models" that are foreigner. all the best terrans are korean(and i think that's because terran takes a ton of time of refining to be the best at)
everyone bashes terran(no matter what)
there appears to be a sort of skill barrier at a certain point which takes a while to pass(low-mid masters level)
and finally --> OPTIONS! i've considered many times switching races simply because there's so many more options as(specifically) protoss. with terran im forced into MMM in TvP which can be tedious where protoss has the choice to do one of many unit compositions, and in TvZ it feels like anything other than tank marine puts me at a very big disadvantage(even with good micro [not to pet me own ego, but i have very quick hands coming from an fps background]) it feels like i have to severely outplay my opponent to get a win, and it's fragile as hell.
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On December 14 2011 13:06 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:53 Kharnage wrote:
PvT has changed. more drop play, more HT with storms since emp is less effective. Less stalkers, better understanding of what composition to get than ever before. Double forge play is normal instead of rare. Protoss gained their confidence in going into the late game. Just a short point on the double forge play, it became popular for a time, because terrans where lazy in upgrades. They quickly started to conter the double forge with double ebay to break the gateway heavy army. Now it seems terrans have forgotten that you go double ebay against double forge. And suddenly are 2/0 against 3/3. While everyone knows that a difference of 1/1 in tvp with even armies is a run over for the weaker upgraded side. I was really curious why everyone said that the cost change wouldn't be a huge deal for toss. It basically meant you can go double upgrades + tech a little. So you aren't forced onto the gateway heavy play with double forge and can transition a bit faster, which is hard for the terran to keep up when they double upgrade themself.
The cost reduction isn't actually a *big* deal. Yes, it matters, but not at all for 1/1, only a really small amount for 2/2 and a bit more for 3/3. It really matters a lot for shields, but shields are upgraded last of all.
Honestly I think the main thing is the shift away from massing stalkers. Building lots of stalkers means no tech and no upgrades, just an army that don't even benefit well from upgrades.
A round of 4 zealots instead of a round of 4 stalkers means you have 100mins and 200 gas in the bank. That's enough for an attack upgrade and a sentry. Then get a few extra gates so you can do bigger 'emergency' spends and start your upgrades. You can always cancel them and do a full warp in if you see an attack coming.
I think the trend of getting a small number of stalkers and when you see terran pushing out warping in 1(or 2 if you have the time) rounds of stalkers brings you up to strength.
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I actually switched from Zerg to Terran, for me I liked the flexible nature of Terran, I also try and play macro games, hardly ever stay on one base and don't ever 1-1-1 a Protoss.
I feel it's the most rewarding race to play late game, the multitasking macro/micro of late game especially in regards to late game.
Also I feel like Terran have more crisp timing attacks then any other race that pay off to have them really refined.
Zerg and Protoss are also a lot of fun, but when it comes down to it I like the micro of bio/drops leap frogging of tanks, and production cycles, something that Zerg and Protoss can't really satisfy me with.
Also my favorite players all play Terran, SlayerSMMA, IMMvp, STBomber are all great Terran role models for me to try and emulate.
I think one thing that might effect the reason you don't see as many Terrans on NA and EU is because you don't really have any great Terran names that come out of those regions, ( in comparison to Top level Korean players) where as with Protoss you have Huk/WhiteRa/Naniwa and Zerg Stephano/Idra that players can look to from their home servers.
That is my take on it at least.
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On December 14 2011 13:06 Ubenn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:55 MannerMan wrote:
I don't think terran micro is nearly as difficult as people think it is. Protoss and zergs have been playing against a really strong terran for a long time now though, so they are super adapted to the standard style of kiting and splitting, so now that terran is back in line the middle levels are seeing a huge shift.
Terran players need to look within :p Because Z or P have anything like splitting marines against banes. You're dumb.
because terran has anything like laying down storms and feedbacks before greater range emps or blinking stalkers, or collosi micro, or FFs. whassup.
micro occurs for all 3 races.
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I've noticed that in my ladder too, last week there were like 15 PvZs and PvPs and only 4 PvTs for me.
Edit - I should probably switch to terran then i guess, less mirror games xD.
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This thread went downhill fast
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You're probably seeing less terrans because TvP is such a garbage fucking matchup. You're forced to go MMM, 1-1-1, or die die die.
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Why is it exactly that everyone is concluding that terran is harder to play?
All 3 races have things that are difficult to micro
All 3 have things that require their attention and require good multitasking
How are we comparing things that are so substantially different?
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I would say its just hard to play terran unless you have really good control... but i dont think its soo hard that it is worth switching from. I think some people dont like the nerfs and the others dont like being told they play op race
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On December 14 2011 13:16 LedFarmer wrote:
I actually switched from Zerg to Terran, for me I liked the flexible nature of Terran, I also try and play macro games, hardly ever stay on one base and don't ever 1-1-1 a Protoss.
I feel it's the most rewarding race to play late game, the multitasking macro/micro of late game especially in regards to late game.
Also I feel like Terran have more crisp timing attacks then any other race that pay off to have them really refined.
Zerg and Protoss are also a lot of fun, but when it comes down to it I like the micro of bio/drops leap frogging of tanks, and production cycles, something that Zerg and Protoss can't really satisfy me with.
Also my favorite players all play Terran, SlayerSMMA, IMMvp, STBomber are all great Terran role models for me to try and emulate.
I think one thing that might effect the reason you don't see as many Terrans on NA and EU is because you don't really have any great Terran names that come out of those regions, ( in comparison to Top level Korean players) where as with Protoss you have Huk/WhiteRa/Naniwa and Zerg Stephano/Idra that players can look to from their home servers.
That is my take on it at least.
This has got to be a lie. You enjoy leap-frogging tanks?
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Terrans didn't need to be nerfed, the other races needed some buffs, terran now feels how zerg/protoss did 6 months ago. The game hasn't improved or been balanced, it's been nerfed to make it look that way, unfortunatley they just did a circle, now terran is at the bottom while I think zerg is on top.
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you guys do realize terran is still being played by 30% of people right? At one point zerg was like 25% because of how weak it was, maybe even lower. I don't see the big deal...I watch a lot of streams of good players, regardless of race, everything is ridiculous at upper levels, saying any one race is the hardest to play isn't really fair, all races have benefits and downsides (because they are different races)
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On December 14 2011 13:06 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:53 Kharnage wrote:
PvT has changed. more drop play, more HT with storms since emp is less effective. Less stalkers, better understanding of what composition to get than ever before. Double forge play is normal instead of rare. Protoss gained their confidence in going into the late game. Just a short point on the double forge play, it became popular for a time, because terrans where lazy in upgrades. They quickly started to conter the double forge with double ebay to break the gateway heavy army. Now it seems terrans have forgotten that you go double ebay against double forge. And suddenly are 2/0 against 3/3. While everyone knows that a difference of 1/1 in tvp with even armies is a run over for the weaker upgraded side. I was really curious why everyone said that the cost change wouldn't be a huge deal for toss. It basically meant you can go double upgrades + tech a little. So you aren't forced onto the gateway heavy play with double forge and can transition a bit faster, which is hard for the terran to keep up when they double upgrade themself.
You can't tech too much because you only start saving 150 gas comparing to prepatch when you get your 2/2's, hence post twilight. You can dump more gas into your army tho, that's good.
1/1/1 vs toss, hellion play vs z and mmm vs terran (despite what Artosis says) are fun as hell. Banelings suck tho 
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On December 14 2011 13:19 Roxy wrote:
Why is it exactly that everyone is concluding that terran is harder to play?
All 3 races have things that are difficult to micro
All 3 have things that require their attention and require good multitasking
How are we comparing things that are so substantially different?
All races can require difficult micro situations, but t's more important to micro well as Terran because you can't fall back on a reinforcement army since units don't produce quickly. If you're Terran and mess up micro you could lose your entire army and then have to wait for each new round of units to be built. If you're Protoss and the same thing happens, you can fall back on your 15 warpgates for instant resupply or your 30 larva if you're Zerg. You don't really have this luxury as Terran so it means micro and keeping your army alive is much more important than the other races. And this goes double if you're going mech since the units build slower and you typically won't have as many factories as you would barracks (if you're going bio).
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probably because terran requires the most unit building management to be honest
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EPT
