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On December 14 2011 12:43 ig0tfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:15 HypernovA wrote:
Why have I stopped playing this game?
- I'm tired of having to work 2 or 3 times harder than most of my opponents (high diamond level).
- I'm tired of being flamed if I win because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of being called a bad player because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of people calling me a cheesy abuser if I use units like cloaked banshees, or hellions openings.
- I'm tired of people flaming Terran players who win tournaments in situations where clearly the Terran player was the superior player.
- I'm tired of receiving help answer like "LOL DUDE, MAKE MORE MARINES. Can't make more MMM against Protoss? Wow you suck."
There. I said it. The community is very negative toward Terran players in General and this has caused me to stop playing and only watch games. I get this kind of shit a lot, masters Terran here. Pretty much why I stopped trying and just all-in pretty much every game now. If people want to talk shit for using cheesy strats then I will keep using cheesy strats.
Pretty much what I do. I all-in every game against Protoss, sometimes against Terran. I only enjoy the TvZ matchup so I try to play macro games there but I still lose like 60% of the time.
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On December 14 2011 12:36 Pingoo wrote:
I think Terran players switch to Z or P, because it's frustrating to play terran right now. I think the right way to play terran is either very agressive (1 or 2 base timings) or macro oriented(drop harrass and heavy focus on upgrades) which requires a lot of apm and practice.
The main reason also is the recent TvP state. Since the patch, Terran are struggling to the new protoss builds. I hope to see in the next few weeks some type of standard build (other than 1/1/1 ^-^ ) because i'm lost in this matchup.
I played T in BW and SC2. The fact that terran is "hard" to master is what I like about Terran. And I hope the "true" Terran users stick to their guns, we can do it brothers!!
Terran fighting!!!
well said :D
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On December 14 2011 12:43 ig0tfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:15 HypernovA wrote:
Why have I stopped playing this game?
- I'm tired of having to work 2 or 3 times harder than most of my opponents (high diamond level).
- I'm tired of being flamed if I win because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of being called a bad player because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of people calling me a cheesy abuser if I use units like cloaked banshees, or hellions openings.
- I'm tired of people flaming Terran players who win tournaments in situations where clearly the Terran player was the superior player.
- I'm tired of receiving help answer like "LOL DUDE, MAKE MORE MARINES. Can't make more MMM against Protoss? Wow you suck."
There. I said it. The community is very negative toward Terran players in General and this has caused me to stop playing and only watch games. I get this kind of shit a lot, masters Terran here. Pretty much why I stopped trying and just all-in pretty much every game now. If people want to talk shit for using cheesy strats then I will keep using cheesy strats.
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about.
Terran players are stigmatized in this community and it's really sad to see, it stops being fun to play this game when you work to get real good at it only to have the rest of the community tell you that you're being carried by your race.
I suspect if there is a shrinking Terran population it will continue to shrink until this stigma goes away.
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I wish there were more terrans on ladder so bad. I want to play tvt so much fun and it rewards the patient macro player not the noob who can only all in :D
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On December 14 2011 12:29 ZenithM wrote:
It takes a lot from me to say that, but I think that Terran is actually harder when you have 50 APM, and most players on ladder have not that much more than that.
Protoss can macro decently (and by that I mean still a mediocre macro, but he can mass up his deathball, that's what I mean) with 50 APM, Zerg can mass up resources, as long as they inject decently, they will be able to produce a decent amount of stuff all at the same time. Terran macro is like Protoss macro, except with a greater granularity (cheaper units and faster to make than Protoss, slower supply buildings too), so requires by design faster macro APM.
Problem is that people (below high master) are not willing to improve their mechanics that much, and are probably not aware that mechanics are what would let them improve the most. They just think of fancy strats, "clever" cheeses and shit, but working on moving their fingers faster seems a bit dull to them (although we know it's so rewarding when you begin to reach some kind of crispness ;D). So Terran is less efficient for them.
With 100+ APM (post 1.4), the 3 races do not differ that much in mechanical difficulty anymore, but I guess you're already far off on the ladder at this level if you're not completely clueless about actual strategy.
I'm mid diamond I have 180+ apm(sc2gears) and about 100apm (sc2 measurements) what is this
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The difference between gold/ platinum and diamond/ master Protoss is much in the BO and it's execution, similar for Zerg. Terran has to add to this a lot of improvement in things like micro and late game scouting. IMO, this makes Terran a lot harder to play at this particular level. TvP is complete BS to.
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One thing bothers me though. While I can understand ClouD's take on this (he's at the top EU level after all), most of the random ladder Terrans have a 50% winrate (thanks to Blizzard), and they don't play other Terrans because there is no terran player (supposedly).
So how come you can all state that your race is the hardest? You win 50% of your matches, don't you? You say that "this" or "that" is fucking hard for terran, but you still win games in the end. I mean, I would say "Protoss is fucking easy OLOLOL", I would still lose 50% of my matches, so I can't really be convinced that Protoss is that easy.
I'm mid diamond I have 180+ apm(sc2gears) and about 100apm (sc2 measurements) what is this
I don't understand, are you complaining about Terran being hard? If yes:
Well you got a problem then, you must rethink if it is actual mechanics or just mindless spam. MVP got barely more APM than you. With that much difference between your sc2gears APM and your game APM, I'm guessing you're spamming control groups a lot. That's not all "mechanics" means.
Or you have good mechanics but bad strategy.
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I wonder if all the people switching to Z from T are ready for the minefield of stupidity that is ladder ZvZ. I've thought about switching the other way in all honesty, after playing a year as Z, I'm considering going random in HOTS, just because I'm never going to be grandmaster.. so why not enjoy the game to it's fullest by playing a bit of everything.
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United States893 Posts
I'd actually wish there were more terrans on the ladder, ZvT is far more enjoyable that ZvP/vZ. It's also my best mu haha so I obviously want to get it more on the ladder. ZvP/vZ just gets old after a while since I don't really understand the mu's that well T_T.
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part of the problem is how much intense hate you get when you play terran. Every time you win you get cussed down and your friends irl will taunt you for playing the OP Terrans.
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On December 14 2011 12:48 ZenithM wrote:
One thing bothers me though. While I can understand ClouD's take on this (he's at the top EU level after all), most of the random ladder Terrans have a 50% winrate (thanks to Blizzard), and they don't play other Terrans because there is no terran player (supposedly).
So how come you can all state that your race is the hardest? You win 50% of your matches, don't you? You say that "this" or "that" is fucking hard for terran, but you still win games in the end. I mean, I would say "Protoss is fucking easy OLOLOL", I would still lose 50% of my matches, so I can't really be convinced that Protoss is that easy.
that happens because in the end you get to play people at your level no matter how hard or easy your race or the others are. it's not like the hardest race at the lower levels gets more losses, they just fight even with overall "worse" players.
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I have to agree with this, tvz isnt terrible its tough but I can win. tvp is a nightmare for me honestly I feel that if I try to have a macro game Im just going to lose because protoss late game is crazy. Zealots dont die, storm kills everything, and you need to micro like a machine to even have a chance. Have the reason I am trying out mech in tvp is to try and avoid this shit.
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For some reason there is a lot of protoss on the upper gold low plat ladder i no joke played 8 pvp s in a row then a T then a p the n a Z then another 4 P, it seems like lower level players switch races too easily based off of popular opinion
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On December 14 2011 12:50 Natespank wrote:
part of the problem is how much intense hate you get when you play terran. Every time you win you get cussed down and your friends irl will taunt you for playing the OP Terrans.
To add to this, I remember just a few weeks ago watching the MLG Providence stream where Husky said something like "give a cheer for [player name] if you like Terran!" and about half the crowd actually boo'd and very few people cheered. Just shows how anti-terran the sc2 community is.
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On December 14 2011 12:51 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:48 ZenithM wrote:
One thing bothers me though. While I can understand ClouD's take on this (he's at the top EU level after all), most of the random ladder Terrans have a 50% winrate (thanks to Blizzard), and they don't play other Terrans because there is no terran player (supposedly).
So how come you can all state that your race is the hardest? You win 50% of your matches, don't you? You say that "this" or "that" is fucking hard for terran, but you still win games in the end. I mean, I would say "Protoss is fucking easy OLOLOL", I would still lose 50% of my matches, so I can't really be convinced that Protoss is that easy. that happens because in the end you get to play people at your level no matter how hard or easy your race or the others are. it's not like the hardest race at the lower levels gets more losses, they just fight even with overall "worse" players.
Yeah but that's my point. How can you say for sure that you play "worse" players?
I play Protoss. Do I have to convince myself that I play "better" players constantly?
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Metagame is shifting.
My thoughts on Terran balance
Go back 3 months, terran's endgame TvP (which reading 11 pages has pretty much concluded that TvP is the big upset) was exactly the same as it is now, except emp is nerfed and immortals have more range. Zealots were exactly the same and no one cared cause if you EMP the entire army and stutter step back you'll win. What makes this hard to understand is visually it looks the same. You do the same EMPs as before and think 'ah ha! got em' except you only hit half the units you thought you did.
PvT has changed. more drop play, more HT with storms since emp is less effective. Less stalkers, better understanding of what composition to get than ever before. Double forge play is normal instead of rare. Protoss gained their confidence in going into the late game.
All this means an increasing difficulty for terrans who are still doing exactly the same thing as before. The match up is definately closse right now. Money storms or emps make or break games. Too many vikings or not enough colossus win and lose matches Positioning matters, upgrades matter.
As a protoss player I can sympathise. 3 months ago it seemed that terran openings were stronger, their mid-game safer and the end game was certain death from EMP / viking. A big part of me from 3 months ago just wants to say 'suck it up, I didn't quit.'
I'll also be willing to bet that come mid to late January there will be a shift in how terran are approaching the matchup. I'm even willing to say it's going to involve ravens and banshees. I know, you're going to say 'but HT counter those blah blah blah'. Relax, it's just a guess.
I 'feel like' they will be of renewed interest just like the hellion was after slayers busted out the BFH. We'll see.
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On December 14 2011 11:10 poorcloud wrote:
I switched to zerg because its disgustingly difficult to have the micro required to beat a zerg using terran in diamond. Plus my apm is really low, so i'm not always looking at my army, which makes it frustrating when my army disappears in 3 seconds.
Not to mention how TvP is a joke. Its my best matchup but i always win with timings off 2 base. The moment it gets to the late game, i will never win due to the deathball.
Zerg is much easier to play and macro. You do not have to babysit your army all the time and can focus on hitting those injects + scouting/checking the map.
I've offraced against diamond/low master zergs and barely had to micro to win besides army positioning - I sure as hell can't even split marines. I'd guarantee your play is full of holes, issues that are going to plague you no matter what race you pick.
You probably only win TvP with 2base timings because you're always playing with 2base timings.
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I find balance discussion by anyone not in the top tier of players for a given race to be a complete waste of time for the most part. Honestly, why focus on Blizzard balancing the game when there are loads of ways you could improve yourself.
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On December 14 2011 12:53 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:51 aTnClouD wrote:On December 14 2011 12:48 ZenithM wrote:
One thing bothers me though. While I can understand ClouD's take on this (he's at the top EU level after all), most of the random ladder Terrans have a 50% winrate (thanks to Blizzard), and they don't play other Terrans because there is no terran player (supposedly).
So how come you can all state that your race is the hardest? You win 50% of your matches, don't you? You say that "this" or "that" is fucking hard for terran, but you still win games in the end. I mean, I would say "Protoss is fucking easy OLOLOL", I would still lose 50% of my matches, so I can't really be convinced that Protoss is that easy. that happens because in the end you get to play people at your level no matter how hard or easy your race or the others are. it's not like the hardest race at the lower levels gets more losses, they just fight even with overall "worse" players. Yeah but that's my point. How can you say for sure that you play "worse" players? I play Protoss. Do I have to convince myself that I play "better" players constantly?
If you make Zealots then YES.
loljkbutforeal
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said it from the start terran is the hardest race, the things to abuse are slowly being removed, making the other races easier to play and enjoy for commoners, but terran will stay the elite race, like in bw and i love it that way.
It's mostly because you need more different unit types and have to control them at the same time. But the upcoming mod hearts of the swarm is adding units to terran that will not need in battle micro like every terran unit currently to be effective, because of the unit pathing and targeting ai. (The colossus benefits the most from the unit pathing, and mutas get some great benefits in control due to air unit mechanics, while thors and tanks targeting ai prefers the wrong target if not controlled). So Hots might fix that i am better yet i still lose feeling (that all races seem to experiment though at different points of the game)
I don't really mind though, terran needs basic micro to even work, since a clicking against aoes doesn't work for terran and base management is the hardest of all races. (thats why alot ond ladder try to end it before that happens). When i play the different races, i need way more time to get back into terran again.
But saying the other races are easymode isn't really true, you can put as much micro into them as you can put into terran and your units benefit as much from it. The one thing though is that terrans don't have effective aoes, like the other races. Making noob level quiet hard. We have aoes, but they are pretty specialized and that way the need alot of control and are easy to work around. Thats only an issue for lower leagues though (from my experience it affects games up to low master though, because the opponents get better at abusing weaknesses as well).
Anyway before it gets to long, terran needs more training then the other races, and is a bit harder then the other races, but it doesn't really mean much. Toss and Zerg also take quiet a bit of work to get good at and are far from being easy mode. (though the zerg qq (felt like zerg was at a strike "buff us or we won't even try") at the sc2 release led to some balancing mistakes by blizzard and because the roach didn't worked as a 1 supply unit in beta, which screwed the early game a bit).
As for terran, If they are to strong, you are to weak.
But there are 2 possible expansions (maybe just simple mods if they remove units in both parts), that will try to deal with those issues and blizzard always did a good job with expansions and fixing weaknesses of a race. So i am sure that they will try to deal with all the issues people have in WoL.
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EPT
