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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 13 2011 22:55 zidaneshead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:54 Talin wrote:On December 13 2011 22:46 zidaneshead wrote: Naniwa's job, whether he wants to accept it or not, is to entertain people. For the sake of SC2 scene, I certainly hope it isn't. Perhaps you can describe to me what other core purpose the SC2 scene is supposed to serve.
How about competition?
Although the entertainment industry tries to wiggle its way into everything these days, Starcraft is about skill and competition, and everything else is of secondary value. Entertainment most certainly isn't the "core purpose".
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On December 13 2011 21:42 Lovedoll wrote: Here's how I feel about the whole thing.
Naniwa was being a sore loser. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasons why Naniwa did what he did. After losing three straight games he must be drained mentally as well as physically. He's already out of the tournament, so why bother taking what's basically an impromptu showmatch seriously? Naniwa sending out all his probes was his way of saying 'I really don't care'.
On the flip side of that, I really don't care if you're having a bad day, Naniwa. I was really looking forwards to the Nestea vs Naniwa grudge match after Naniwa had some choice words for him at MLG. But rather than engage in a rival competition, he'd rather throw the game.
In the long run of things, I don't really care which way the match would've gone. Naniwa sending out his probes was well worth the laugh. But in terms of handling things like a professional gamer, that was the most immature, jerk move he could have pulled. Well said. What he did was unprofessional and unnecessary. Everyone should be more like White-Ra or Sheth. That's all I have to say.
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On December 13 2011 22:58 TheEconomist wrote: To be purposefully honest, this is professional behavior. There is no more money to to be had, so why waste everyone's time? yes, it woulda been cool to see a Naniwa and Nestea rematch, but this way 1) This is Naniwa. He hasn't tried to be anyone else. 2) The rematch has even more spice. (Think objectively, it really does. A best of one wouldn't have settled matters anyways) 3) It isnt unheard of that people who don't need to play the game don't actually play it. 4) I wouldn't be surprized if Naniwa left the studio afterwards to go practice. 5) Its a really cool story, and there is an epic gif out of it already ^^.
I love point 2 because it's so true. NesTea is absolutely furious right now and Naniwa basically gave him the middle finger. The points don't matter just like in Improv. Give the players something to fight for and perhaps they will show up.
The only backlash this has is the fact it's going to be incredibly hard for Nani to find a Korean team to join once that day comes. At least for now because they're up-in-arms about him.
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On December 13 2011 23:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:57 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:52 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:49 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:41 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:32 Zeaket wrote: 2) This game probably gained Naniwa and GOM more attention than any standard macro game could have. While it's true people love long macro games, people also love "bad boys". Which do you think is more likely to gain more attention from people: "They played a long macro game, but Nestea won" or "NANIWA PROBE RUSHED OMG"?
People love bad boys, but they have never loved quitters. Even IdrA's fans were angry or at least indifferent when he used to leave games without trying. No one said it added to his bad boy image. Honestly, this is terrible. Shows a lot about Naniwa's resolve. Idra quits games that MATTER. Naniwa played his heart out in the 3 games that did matter. Resolve to do what? Win a showmatch? No he probably doesn't care too much about that and he probably didn't feel like practicing after those three games he lost. Resolve to be competitive. It doesn't matter what place you're in, you don't try to lose like that, especially in a broadcast game. But they're not competing in anything since they had both already lost, forcing a showmatch between the two players that had lost all their games just minutes ago is just a ridiculous tournament setup. Have you ever played an organized sport? They were simply not playing for nothing. The season doesn't end when you're eliminated from the playoffs. Like someone else said, it's a pride match.
I am guessing you are thinking about team sports? Because then there are other things on the line, and its not really unusual for teams to use "B-players" in matches that does not matter.
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Wasn't really a fan of "Seltzer" until now. This tweet sums up my feelings on the matter.
from Rachel Quiricos twitter (CSN interviewer) "The game didn't matter for the tourney. He's an athlete, not a dancing monkey. Let him save the rematch for when it matters."
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On December 13 2011 22:59 Xalorian wrote: Seriously, I don't care about BM, since it does add to the scene...
But it's not BM, it's simply unprofessional. Throwing games should NEVER be allowed.
Stop acting like players are the boss of the scene, and that they can do anything they want. The only reasons that they are paid to play this game is because peoples want to watch them, because peoples want to cast them, and because peoples want to organised event.
It's a shame for eSports.
This doesn't change if people want to watch naniwa because everyone knows he'll play well and his best in games that matters.
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Oh wow, that's pretty crazy. I don't go on TL for a couple days and stuff like this happens O.o
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United States22883 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:02 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:01 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:57 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:52 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:49 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:41 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:32 Zeaket wrote: 2) This game probably gained Naniwa and GOM more attention than any standard macro game could have. While it's true people love long macro games, people also love "bad boys". Which do you think is more likely to gain more attention from people: "They played a long macro game, but Nestea won" or "NANIWA PROBE RUSHED OMG"?
People love bad boys, but they have never loved quitters. Even IdrA's fans were angry or at least indifferent when he used to leave games without trying. No one said it added to his bad boy image. Honestly, this is terrible. Shows a lot about Naniwa's resolve. Idra quits games that MATTER. Naniwa played his heart out in the 3 games that did matter. Resolve to do what? Win a showmatch? No he probably doesn't care too much about that and he probably didn't feel like practicing after those three games he lost. Resolve to be competitive. It doesn't matter what place you're in, you don't try to lose like that, especially in a broadcast game. But they're not competing in anything since they had both already lost, forcing a showmatch between the two players that had lost all their games just minutes ago is just a ridiculous tournament setup. Have you ever played an organized sport? They were simply not playing for nothing. The season doesn't end when you're eliminated from the playoffs. Like someone else said, it's a pride match. bo1 pride match in starcraft? really? i could understand if it was a bo3 or more. It doesn't matter what the format is. Have you ever listened to a professional athlete talk about winning? They say they want to win everything. It doesn't matter if it's at a bowling alley with friends, they're ultracompetitive and always want to win. That's not him.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I don't think it was how a professional ought to conduct himself, but I'd be lying if I said I was particularly bothered by it.
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honestly throwing games for different reasons happens in many tournaments and the only reason this time it's being highlited so much is that the game was streamed and it was in a big korean tournament. naniwa has just chosen the worst possible situation to throw a game and he was so pissed by the fact he lost the previous games that didn't think of the consequences.
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You can't seriously compare this to a team sport. Teams own stadiums where people pay to see their games. Naniwa isn't getting money for putting on a show. And teams don't get paid for winning they get paid for playing.
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I honestly have no issues with Naniwa throwing away the game. You see it all the time in real sports. If anything he did us all a favor and ended a game quickly where both sides were probably not in a competitive mood.
There are so many examples in basketball why teams throw games or make a mockery of the game. Teams who have no chance in making the playoffs suddenly have their star player "injured" and they pretty much purposely lose to get a better seeding in the draft. Similarly on the flip side when a team is already guaranteed a high playoff spot you see them not play their starters in order to rest them for later. All of these actions are bad for the fans, but are done anyways.
Fans are not entitled to epic games every single time.
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damn, naniwa gained a LOT of haters, probably when he had that interview about nestea that was twisted beyond recognition.
If this was considered throwing a match, I wonder what stuff like stephano vs bratok or basically every 6pool is, among other things. Throwing a match when there's absolutely nothing on the line other than pride is not actually throwing a match. Even the Coca thing, Byun at least had a CHANCE of eventually playing for a code A spot. For Naniwa's situation, it literally does not go anywhere at that point.
Oh, and for the people trying to compare this to other professional sports, they aren't the same thing. For starters, many players' contracts require that the player accomplish something in order to get a bonus on their contract; for example a running back may need 1000 yards rushing in the season to get a few million dollars. So even if the team has no chance in the playoffs, the players will STILL play. This, to my knowledge, there is no difference between 4th and 5th place in the group other than pride.
Several games, such as preseason games, have no meaning on the regular season, but the preseason games allow for the benchwarmers to get some practice and for the teams to see whether or not the players are worth fielding in real games. So the players WILL play. This does not have that effect.
and so on
EDIT: And the above poster also pointed out more examples where actual professional teams "throw games" by benching their starters for whatever reason.
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Naniwa's tweets:
@QuanticNaNi johan lucchesi apparently people got upset when i probe rushed nestea, the game was pointless and it couldnt change anything in the tournament.
@QuanticNaNi johan lucchesi i can understand if fans got upset but neither of us had anything on stake and wouldnt play our best. i am sry if people expected more tho
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On December 13 2011 23:02 zedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:59 Stonedviper wrote: Every race needs an idra player and NaNi is the protoss version...lol IdrA has common sense and doesn't pull off bullshit like this.
Idra didnt play the rest of his group matches in IPL3 to get rest for the next day..he didnt play his - 7-8th place matches in mlg.6 pooled jinro at jungle basin forfeited his codeS spot at round of 4...what are u talking about
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On December 13 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:02 zedi wrote:On December 13 2011 22:59 Stonedviper wrote: Every race needs an idra player and NaNi is the protoss version...lol IdrA has common sense and doesn't pull off bullshit like this. If you had read the thread you would know idra has done worse things ^^
Yeah, he's made a lot of these kind of shitstorms. Wait what?
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On December 13 2011 23:01 -_- wrote: I'm a strange guy, and this makes me respect Naniwa more.
If I was in Naniwa's position, I would've played a game which appeared plausibly competitive without putting in any real effort. I might think about probe rushing, but I would imagine the backlash that would come and lose my nerve.
What is the benefit of someone hiding the fact that he's not trying? Would you rather Naniwa do a listless eight gateway rush? Certainly I wish Naniwa would've soldiered on and played his hardest, but I understand that a player is sometimes mentally unable to do that, and would rather he be upfront about it rather than disguise his intentions. I agree with you,if anything Naniwa is sticking to his guns and not whoring out and being someone who he isn't. He may be BM,he may be in the wrong,but at least he stands by what he does.
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To quote Naniwa in his interview,
So if you suffer a bad loss in the groups early on, do you think you can bounce back?
"It doesn't matter to me in other games if I win or lose the previous match, I just treat each match like it's the same thing, and give it my best."
It might be on a somewhat different scenario from what he's anticipated, but I think he's clearly forgotten his resolution in that game. That alone also shows how much he's betrayed the expectations from viewers expecting something from that game.
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