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Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed. |
On December 13 2011 23:06 skipgamer wrote:
In any other sport this would be called "bringing the game in to disrepute" and would be dealt with by handing out a hefty fine. I hope the same happens here and sets a standard for e-sports in the future.
Uruguay vs Ghana.
Enough Said
Guys this really isnt a big deal. Once heads calm down, People will revise their view. In fact, if anything this view is DIFFERENT from their normal stance, in that as SOON as you lose two games, you're out of the GSL pool play. Why should this be any different?
In fact, look at how they play their code A up and downs last season, if the last two players had no hope of qualifying, they didn't play. and if i'm not mistaken, neither did the winners vs each other.
Why should THIS gomTV tourney be any different?
And there have been TONS of other instances of extreme BM in other sports. One I can remember is a tennis player injured herself in a wimbledon match, won it anyway, played one game of the next round and retired. Why? Coz there was money involved.
Was there money involved in this? No
Would Naniwa play his best?
No
Would we REALLY accept a best of one result as a MLG rematch?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, he decided he was over life, and threw a game.
This happened with Stephano and Bratok at assembly, where the winner played sen. Race to the bottom. Huge outcry, no result.
Really. This doesnt mean as much as ppl are making this out to be/
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On December 13 2011 23:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:57 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:52 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:49 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:41 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:32 Zeaket wrote:
2) This game probably gained Naniwa and GOM more attention than any standard macro game could have. While it's true people love long macro games, people also love "bad boys". Which do you think is more likely to gain more attention from people: "They played a long macro game, but Nestea won" or "NANIWA PROBE RUSHED OMG"?
People love bad boys, but they have never loved quitters. Even IdrA's fans were angry or at least indifferent when he used to leave games without trying. No one said it added to his bad boy image. Honestly, this is terrible. Shows a lot about Naniwa's resolve. Idra quits games that MATTER. Naniwa played his heart out in the 3 games that did matter. Resolve to do what? Win a showmatch? No he probably doesn't care too much about that and he probably didn't feel like practicing after those three games he lost. Resolve to be competitive. It doesn't matter what place you're in, you don't try to lose like that, especially in a broadcast game. But they're not competing in anything since they had both already lost, forcing a showmatch between the two players that had lost all their games just minutes ago is just a ridiculous tournament setup. Have you ever played an organized sport? They were simply not playing for nothing. The season doesn't end when you're eliminated from the playoffs. Like someone else said, it's a pride match.
You're deluded if you think professional soccer players play their games out for pride. They do it because they have to or they'll get kicked off the team, and the team forces them so they can collect money from tickets. Most games DO matter in soccer though thankfully, and when they don't the teams doesn't play to win. They send in worse players to try them out, they usually plays with a lot less passion etc.
And I'd also argue that there were no pride left to fight for in that game, they were both losers. Maybe Nestea felt differently but Naniwa seems to agree with me.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment.
West Germany did it to Algeria in the World Cup, and people,including Germans, started burning W. German flags in disgust.
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On December 13 2011 23:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 22:57 Nekovivie wrote:On December 13 2011 22:56 Gaxton wrote:
First of all, i agree that the match should never have been played in the first place. why? It would have decided who bottomed out the group. A classic pride match, football leagues, soccer leagues, all have these. Its normal. People are also paying money to see this. Erm, you cant compare soccer/football to eSports. Why? Because of three things. In Soccer EVERY place you finish gets rewarded somehow. The industry works completly different. It is a teamgame.
Yes, it is not the same thing, but imagine the shit storm, when a team, last in its group in the champions league, decides to express its frustration in its last match by rushing to the opposing goalkeeper, kicking him a couple of times in the nuts and then leaving the stadium. And then the fans of the team blame the format of the champions league.
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On December 13 2011 23:11 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:09 skipgamer wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 oban wrote:
The bullying towards Naniwa is disgusting. What a retarded, bandwagoning community this is. He threw a game that didn't mean anything. Get over it.
There is very little bullying and bandwagoning here... Everyone who is upset is upset with his actions, not him personally. He threw a game that meant nothing to him, but may have meant something to many others around the world. I will not "get over it" until there's at least an apology. he already apologized on twitter, read the thread.
I am reading the thread, "i am sry if people expected more tho" is not an apology...
It's some short hand bullshit that means nothing to him...
Fake apologies are worse than no apology.
And of course people expected more, WTF does he think? We watch SC2 just to go "oh, this game means nothing, I hope somebody just gives up..."
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On December 13 2011 23:03 klo8 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 21:42 Lovedoll wrote:
Here's how I feel about the whole thing.
Naniwa was being a sore loser. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasons why Naniwa did what he did. After losing three straight games he must be drained mentally as well as physically. He's already out of the tournament, so why bother taking what's basically an impromptu showmatch seriously? Naniwa sending out all his probes was his way of saying 'I really don't care'.
On the flip side of that, I really don't care if you're having a bad day, Naniwa. I was really looking forwards to the Nestea vs Naniwa grudge match after Naniwa had some choice words for him at MLG. But rather than engage in a rival competition, he'd rather throw the game.
In the long run of things, I don't really care which way the match would've gone. Naniwa sending out his probes was well worth the laugh. But in terms of handling things like a professional gamer, that was the most immature, jerk move he could have pulled. Well said. What he did was unprofessional and unnecessary. Everyone should be more like White-Ra or Sheth. That's all I have to say.
Not everyone is White-Ra or Sheth and you are being absurd to think otherwise.
There are many sore losers in sports. We have plenty of them in this very community. Children will be children, blah, blah, blah.
As I said earlier, Johan doesn't care about the showmatch. He only cares about himself and winning the tournament. Obviously he couldn't win the tournament today so he bowed out in hilarious fashion. All the fans of e-sports wanted to see entertaining matches. NesTea versus Naniwa PLEASE! Goes back to what I said earlier about winning. Cannot win the tournament. Tough luck, we should expect this by now from certain players.
Johan plays for himself, no one else. Same criteria when you see a player do an abusive build. They want to win. Johan flipped that notion in game 4 because nothing was on the line for him. He didn't want to play. He doesn't want NesTea to get an upper hand on him the next time they play.
It was a total mind-game, don't want to be in the booth right now.
Right now, Johan is totally in NesTea's head.
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I love how people want eSport to be professional yet when we compare it with sport in terms of mentality and how to approach it, they instantly say its just a game and not a sport.
It's EXACTLY like a sport.
EXACTLY like a soccer team that dont show up because they are eliminated.
Theres PEOPLE that PAID to get into the stadium, they trhew their own MONEY to support the organisation, to pay the players via prizepool, to be ENTERTAINED.
They arnt only getting paid to play. They are getting paid to put up a SHOW, as much as a tennisman is getting paid to play EVERY game even when they are eliminated.
They OWE people ENTERTAINEMENT, because WE PAID for it.
Is that clear enough ? How could you not find it enraging ?
This guy should be banned. You have to put a line in the sand and say STOP, you cant go this way and we will not tolerate people that arnt playing AT LEAST to put up a show.
He could have gone carriers, DT, play a fun match and maybe nestea would have follow into it and try to play a fun match too. I would have been happy, I would have payed for SOMETHING.
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On December 13 2011 23:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. West Germany did it to Algeria in the World Cup, and people,including Germans, started burning W. German flags in disgust.
I don't know shit about soccer, but really guys? What the hell?
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Lmao I dont get the QQ and drama but oh well this is TL :D
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I think Mvp vs Nestea in the Blizzard finals was worse.
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It was a dick move to make, sure. And he's in for some trouble!
But you have to admit that was some funny shit :D
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On December 13 2011 23:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. West Germany did it to Algeria in the World Cup, and people,including Germans, started burning W. German flags in disgust.
So it happened even more times, imagine my surprise.
The one I meant was much more recent.
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this should be frowned upon, but people suggesting anything more should really reevaluate the situation
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On December 13 2011 23:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. West Germany did it to Algeria in the World Cup, and people,including Germans, started burning W. German flags in disgust.
West Germany v Austria actually. Point still stands.
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On December 13 2011 23:10 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. Exceptions exist. The obvious point is that in general, you get fucking castigated for pulling shit like Naniwa in competitive arenas.
And this isn't an exception? Are a lot of other players doing this as well? Haven't seen it myself. Haven't actually seen something quite like this happen at all.
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On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:05 shortsteve wrote:
I honestly have no issues with Naniwa throwing away the game. You see it all the time in real sports. If anything he did us all a favor and ended a game quickly where both sides were probably not in a competitive mood.
There are so many examples in basketball why teams throw games or make a mockery of the game. Teams who have no chance in making the playoffs suddenly have their star player "injured" and they pretty much purposely lose to get a better seeding in the draft. Similarly on the flip side when a team is already guaranteed a high playoff spot you see them not play their starters in order to rest them for later. All of these actions are bad for the fans, but are done anyways. That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it.
The Celtics openly admitted they were tanking their season for a higher draft seed. They got punished with a fine for openly saying it, but it didn't stop them from doing it. To most players and teams once the playoffs are no longer in reach they pretty much have no motivation to really continue playing. Teams will usually put their star players on the injured list so that they won't risk injury in pointless matches.
It doesn't just happen in basketball. it happens in pretty much all sports. Do you really think the Raiders are trying to play a competitive game?
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On December 13 2011 23:13 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:12 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 23:09 Vardant wrote:On December 13 2011 23:07 Jibba wrote:
That rarely happens at all. What are you talking about? Players like TMac who admit to giving up get reamed for it. Wasn't there a football match at Olympic games or WC or something, where both teams needed a tie to advance so they didn't play at all? IIRC there was no punishment. West Germany did it to Algeria in the World Cup, and people,including Germans, started burning W. German flags in disgust. So it happened even more times, imagine my surprise. The one I meant was much more recent.
Then you're making stuff up. This hasn't happened to anything near that degree since then. For a reason.
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On December 13 2011 23:12 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:01 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:57 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:52 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:49 pezit wrote:On December 13 2011 22:41 Jibba wrote:On December 13 2011 22:32 Zeaket wrote:
2) This game probably gained Naniwa and GOM more attention than any standard macro game could have. While it's true people love long macro games, people also love "bad boys". Which do you think is more likely to gain more attention from people: "They played a long macro game, but Nestea won" or "NANIWA PROBE RUSHED OMG"?
People love bad boys, but they have never loved quitters. Even IdrA's fans were angry or at least indifferent when he used to leave games without trying. No one said it added to his bad boy image. Honestly, this is terrible. Shows a lot about Naniwa's resolve. Idra quits games that MATTER. Naniwa played his heart out in the 3 games that did matter. Resolve to do what? Win a showmatch? No he probably doesn't care too much about that and he probably didn't feel like practicing after those three games he lost. Resolve to be competitive. It doesn't matter what place you're in, you don't try to lose like that, especially in a broadcast game. But they're not competing in anything since they had both already lost, forcing a showmatch between the two players that had lost all their games just minutes ago is just a ridiculous tournament setup. Have you ever played an organized sport? They were simply not playing for nothing. The season doesn't end when you're eliminated from the playoffs. Like someone else said, it's a pride match. You're deluded if you think professional soccer players play their games out for pride. They do it because they have to or they'll get kicked off the team, and the team forces them so they can collect money from tickets. Most games DO matter in soccer though thankfully, and when they don't the teams doesn't play to win. They send in worse players to try them out, they usually plays with a lot less passion etc. And I'd also argue that there were no pride left to fight for in that game, they were both losers. Maybe Nestea felt differently but Naniwa seems to agree with me.
Same philosophy when your kicked out of the playoffs, or want to save your best players for the playoffs, etc.
Teams do it all the time. Bench guys do it to reserve and rest their big guns for tougher opponents.
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In all honesty, I thought it was super funny what Naniwa did - as a spectator, understand Naniwa's frustration and the fact that the tournament had been feeling really tense up to that point, it added some comic relief to the night. Naniwa did the best that anyone could have done right there by bringing me some entertainment! :D He's not being paid to just play out a match, so why not just probe rush his opponent? Besides, it just further shows off his own personality and makes him a bigger star - which most foreign fans should be happy with. Idra's partly famous for his public displays of bm, why shouldn't Naniwa be credited for going out in style? C'mon guys, lighten up.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 13 2011 23:13 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 23:03 klo8 wrote:On December 13 2011 21:42 Lovedoll wrote:
Here's how I feel about the whole thing.
Naniwa was being a sore loser. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasons why Naniwa did what he did. After losing three straight games he must be drained mentally as well as physically. He's already out of the tournament, so why bother taking what's basically an impromptu showmatch seriously? Naniwa sending out all his probes was his way of saying 'I really don't care'.
On the flip side of that, I really don't care if you're having a bad day, Naniwa. I was really looking forwards to the Nestea vs Naniwa grudge match after Naniwa had some choice words for him at MLG. But rather than engage in a rival competition, he'd rather throw the game.
In the long run of things, I don't really care which way the match would've gone. Naniwa sending out his probes was well worth the laugh. But in terms of handling things like a professional gamer, that was the most immature, jerk move he could have pulled. Well said. What he did was unprofessional and unnecessary. Everyone should be more like White-Ra or Sheth. That's all I have to say. Not everyone is White-Ra or Sheth and you are being absurd to think otherwise. There are many sore losers in sports. We have plenty of them in this very community. Children will be children, blah, blah, blah. As I said earlier, Johan doesn't care about the showmatch. He only cares about himself and winning the tournament. Obviously he couldn't win the tournament today so he bowed out in hilarious fashion. All the fans of e-sports wanted to see entertaining matches. NesTea versus Naniwa PLEASE! Goes back to what I said earlier about winning. Cannot win the tournament. Tough luck, we should expect this by now from certain players. Johan plays for himself, no one else. Same criteria when you see a player do an abusive build. They want to win. Johan flipped that notion in game 4 because nothing was on the line for him. He didn't want to play. He doesn't want NesTea to get an upper hand on him the next time they play. It was a total mind-game, don't want to be in the booth right now. Right now, Johan is totally in NesTea's head.
This is a bunch of horse shit and you know it. Naniwa, in his childishness, inadvertently annoyed Nestea twice. In no way is it a premeditated move to get in Nestea's head.
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