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I feel Starcraft 2 is very passive. - Page 3

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motumbo
Profile Joined February 2011
United States130 Posts
November 23 2011 05:03 GMT
#41
I really don't think this comparison is worthwhile at all. Brood War has developed so much and the player's mechanics in that game were far beyond those of who are playing SC2 right now so they could macro perfectly and constantly use their units in various ways since they knew what to do with them because BW was figured out.
Lavi
Profile Joined November 2011
Bangladesh793 Posts
November 23 2011 05:03 GMT
#42
Yeah I wish the balance of action would spread out better... its either extremely powerful cheese / timing pushes.... or turtle to death ball. In either case the game ends really fast with either timing push ending teh game quickly, or non activity to max army and its over so fast.
Part of the reason is death ball and the units clump up hard on one screen... maybe bring back bw unit spacing where army stretches out across a few screens... or if that is impossible really nerf the deathballs/aoe spells...
Korste
Profile Joined August 2011
United States64 Posts
November 23 2011 05:04 GMT
#43
I'm interested to see how sc2 games will change when/if the bw players come over.
eSuBuildings
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States71 Posts
November 23 2011 05:07 GMT
#44
Damn slugga, that's a lot of edits .__.
"In nature, for organisms, winning means life and losing is death. Although the example’s a bit extreme, humans too possess some of those instincts. People who’ve learned the fear of defeat, thirst for victory."
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
November 23 2011 05:07 GMT
#45
macro games are somewhat passive because the game is far from figured out.

we wont reach BW status for many many years because of expans
Doraemon
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Australia14949 Posts
November 23 2011 05:08 GMT
#46
On November 23 2011 13:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 13:50 Raiznhell wrote:
1) bigger maps, need a ton of HUGE maps
2) no unlimited unit selection.
3) a bit more ridiculousness. like in BW 2 tanks behind a wall would kill infinity dragoons if they tried to bust but in sc2 protoss wouldn't even notice the fact they are being shelled when they right click on the supply depot kill it walk through then click on the tanks one by one and then just win.


Disagree, tanks can do quite a lot o.o

I do think a limited unit selection would be good tho (they have one actually im pretty sure, like 160 units, but it could be smaller, not like BW of course, but where you need to think just a little, like maybe 64 or something lol)


i think 32 would make sense as it would be essential one tab of 4x8 units
Do yourself a favour and just STFU
bennyaus
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1833 Posts
November 23 2011 05:11 GMT
#47
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.
I play Random - HuK, DRG + Liquid fan
ThaZenith
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3116 Posts
November 23 2011 05:12 GMT
#48
SC2 isn't BW, and never will be.

It'll keep evolving, but it's still just going to evolve into a better SC2.

ptrpb
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada753 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 05:13:40
November 23 2011 05:12 GMT
#49
We are only at one stage of the game, and this is what a lot of people who make posts and threads about this stuff don't understand. SC2 does not stop here, and it doesn't continue in a linear fashion. We didn't see a lot of SC1 and in BW the progress throughout the game was similar to SC2. Do not compare SC2 to BW without taking into account the timeline. BW has been around since '98 and SC2 has been out for a year and a bit, if anything compare BW after a year to SC2 after a year.
Is the current play less exciting that BW today? Yes it is, because the game has not been nearly fleshed out as BW; one we know everyone about SC2 and HotS and whatever comes next, then we'll start to see that crisp and exciting play.
MBAACC | SG | shit at fighting games
Doraemon
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Australia14949 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 05:14:06
November 23 2011 05:13 GMT
#50
On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote:
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.


the problem is:
sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg
bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game

that's undeniable
Do yourself a favour and just STFU
Nizzy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States839 Posts
November 23 2011 05:13 GMT
#51
SC2 is more like WC3 than BW which is wrong. 'Balls of armies, and more spell casters than BW" that perfectly describes SC2/WC3.
Lavi
Profile Joined November 2011
Bangladesh793 Posts
November 23 2011 05:15 GMT
#52
Yeah probably better to just say SC2 and BW is two different game but similar name and some units...
what about that rumor I heard about starcraft pheonix though something like a graphically updated BW or was that false?
Seiferz
Profile Joined May 2011
United States640 Posts
November 23 2011 05:17 GMT
#53
From what that blizzard employ casting with Artosis at MLG said, it appears that they're making maps larger over time. Really really large maps might have seemed a little overwhelming on release, but as the game grows and evolves I'm sure we'll see more BW-esque maps that'll allow for more of the engagements you're talking about.
RoboBob
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States798 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 05:26:06
November 23 2011 05:19 GMT
#54
I gotta disagree with the OP. I certainly agree that BW macro games are more fun to watch than SC2 macro games. But you've got the "why" completely wrong.

There's several things that makes BW games look more epic than SC2:

1. SC2 shows much more screenspace than SC1. In SC1 we were always stuck with a 4:3 aspect ratio with tiny resolutions. In SC2 we have access to 16 and 16:10 and higher resolutions, which means we see *much* more stuff in SC2. Put SC2 into 4:3 aspect mode, gimp down the resolution, and then suddenly armies "look" more like BW. But nobody is going to do that with SC2 if they have the option for a better spectating experience.

2. SC2 has much more unit clumping than BW. If you take a screenshot of 20 SC2 Zealots and map them onto 20 SC1 Zealots then its pretty easy to see the difference.

3. Limited unit selection rewards multiprong attacks and hurts straight up pushes. So the action in BW was always much more spread over the map.

4. BW did not have any spectator tabs. You can find out very quickly in a game like Boxer vs Rain what each player is making via looking up at the tab. But in BW you gotta scramble all around the map to check which production facilities are active, and individually check to see what each player is building.

Those are the only reasons why imo. Maps and resource collection rate has nothing to do with it. Sure, MLG and Ladder maps are too small, but GSL maps are as large as MSL OSL. They simply *look* smaller due to the above two things.

There's no way that Blizzard is going to gimp their game just to make it more BW-y. Sure it might make SC2 a better spectator experience, but it would make SC2 a much worse playing experience. SC2 is much more popular now worldwide than BW ever was because unlike SC1, SC2 is a much easier game to play. More players translates into more viewers. Korea was the exception, not the rule.
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
November 23 2011 05:19 GMT
#55
On November 23 2011 14:13 Doraemon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote:
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.


the problem is:
sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg
bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game

that's undeniable

Did you even watch the Thorzain v. MC game he was talking about? No that's not undeniable. It's wrong
Hokay
Profile Joined May 2007
United States738 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-23 05:21:50
November 23 2011 05:20 GMT
#56
I've had the same feelings as the OP for awhile. SC2 just isn't designed a certain way to make more epic and more entertaining macro games than BW, for many reasons already stated. SC2 is still awesome, but it is inferior to BW from a spectator point of view imo. Hopefully the 2 expansions and map designs changes that.
eSuBuildings
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States71 Posts
November 23 2011 05:21 GMT
#57
On November 23 2011 14:12 ptrpb wrote:
We are only at one stage of the game, and this is what a lot of people who make posts and threads about this stuff don't understand. SC2 does not stop here, and it doesn't continue in a linear fashion. We didn't see a lot of SC1 and in BW the progress throughout the game was similar to SC2. Do not compare SC2 to BW without taking into account the timeline. BW has been around since '98 and SC2 has been out for a year and a bit, if anything compare BW after a year to SC2 after a year.
Is the current play less exciting that BW today? Yes it is, because the game has not been nearly fleshed out as BW; one we know everyone about SC2 and HotS and whatever comes next, then we'll start to see that crisp and exciting play.


I have taken the timeline into account, I know they're two entirely different games and should not yet be compared in too much depth. I'm speculating different methods to make watching professional starcraft more exciting. If you go to Korea you see thousands upon thousands of people screaming and cheering for the genius plays and tactics that the BW pros perform, the audience loves all of the action that is happening. Then you go to a foreign SC2 tournament where you have the same situation except toned down. You will have a very attentive crowd and you will only hear those excited screams and shouts whenever a ridiculously good and creative play happens, a huge huge lead is taken, or a giant fight occurs. But until then, you'll hear lots of oooh's and ahhh's.

If we had the same kind of macro games that BW did, where there was excitement upon every level and on every corner of the map, imagine how that would attract people? We already have spectators that don't play, but still watch because they find the game interesting. There are still those people that find the game boring to watch because of all of the waiting that happens. We could expand the scene even further by appealing to more people.
"In nature, for organisms, winning means life and losing is death. Although the example’s a bit extreme, humans too possess some of those instincts. People who’ve learned the fear of defeat, thirst for victory."
Doraemon
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Australia14949 Posts
November 23 2011 05:22 GMT
#58
On November 23 2011 14:19 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 14:13 Doraemon wrote:
On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote:
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.


the problem is:
sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg
bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game

that's undeniable

Did you even watch the Thorzain v. MC game he was talking about? No that's not undeniable. It's wrong


sigh. how can you make an argument through a pool of 1 game.
i have watched 6 years of bw and since the release sc2, and that was my honest opinion.
Do yourself a favour and just STFU
S2Glow
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Singapore1042 Posts
November 23 2011 05:23 GMT
#59
On November 23 2011 14:13 Nizzy wrote:
SC2 is more like WC3 than BW which is wrong. 'Balls of armies, and more spell casters than BW" that perfectly describes SC2/WC3.


Atleast WC3 require lots of MICRO .
<3 Katelyn , C Zerg. Dying wish is to watch proleague live and see my girlfriend which gonna be soon! <33
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
November 23 2011 05:24 GMT
#60
On November 23 2011 14:04 Korste wrote:
I'm interested to see how sc2 games will change when/if the bw players come over.


What are Flash,Jaedong,Bisu is going to do with the extra 300 apm ? even boxer,nada,july are players with great achievement under their belt can't do much for the game or revolutionize the game to the extend you wanted like Bisu's PvZ revolution against savior . DB with his statement that " If you don't like sc2 play Bw " is not a attitude ,a developer like him should have , At least valve are actually listening to the pro's with the upcoming Dota 2 and CS Global offensive , it's good to see old names like Ksharp,Frod,Nothing back in action .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
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