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I'm gonna talk about the elephant in the room: what makes SC2 boring/passive, is the imbalance.
There is just no way for some matchups to end well if not by turtling the hell up and massing a 200/200 fully upgraded army. While Blizzard fails to correct the mistakes they made, we are forced to play and watch huge maps like Calm Before The Storm to avoid your early cheeses. However, as Noblesse showed against InCa, even in ginormous maps like CBTS, it is possible to 2 rax bunker rush, then Marine-SCV all-in and still be ahead both economically and military. Zergs can 6pool/Roach-Rush and play macro at the same time, like July and some other guys have shown time and time again. So... The problem with SC2 is simple: fix the imbalance and the game becomes interesting, with no need for huge maps which force a long boring passive game.
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Ver dropping knowledge in here, haha.
Agree with a lot of what he said.
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On November 23 2011 13:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 13:50 Raiznhell wrote: 1) bigger maps, need a ton of HUGE maps 2) no unlimited unit selection. 3) a bit more ridiculousness. like in BW 2 tanks behind a wall would kill infinity dragoons if they tried to bust but in sc2 protoss wouldn't even notice the fact they are being shelled when they right click on the supply depot kill it walk through then click on the tanks one by one and then just win. Disagree, tanks can do quite a lot o.o I do think a limited unit selection would be good tho (they have one actually im pretty sure, like 160 units, but it could be smaller, not like BW of course, but where you need to think just a little, like maybe 64 or something lol) Don't cripple the UI just for the sake of making it harder. It is not intuitive and I am glad blizzard never went that route.
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Done and done. Now edit your quote, please =XXX
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On November 23 2011 13:35 Ver wrote:+ Show Spoiler +sc2 is not remotely like chess. The difference you noted between bw and sc2 is a combination of simplicity and the superiority of offense over defense. The reason you see so much dancing of armies jockeying for a tiny increase in position in sc2 is because there's so few ways to gain an advantage. Many sc2 games literally come down to the positioning before a fight because nothing else matters remotely as much as winning a battle. In bw engaging correctly was just one of many, many factors in determining victory. Certain players like Jaedong were known for their consistent ability to engage right, while others like iloveoov were particularly bad at it but could win through a variety of other means. In sc2 if you can't engage very well you will never be among the best. When you remove all the nuances of bw that determined skill, you are left with a select very few factors, most notably engaging, but also blind build order luck, that massively determine the outcomes of games because there's so little else to influence the outcome. The other reason for favoring big battles and massive 1a armies is the ease of movement. Movement in bw is much more subtle and difficult to organize and execute. Position (like high ground) meant much more, all races had various tools which favored defense over offense (reavers/storm in pvz, tanks/mines, scourge/swarm/lurker vs vessels, better static defense, etc). Furthermore, the smooth a.i in sc2 means that it's really easy to attack bases without bothering to micro and do insane damage. Plus there are a number of tools which effectively fight defensive setups (banelings, infested terrans, forcefields, immortals, colossus, marines, marauders) These reasons are exactly why backstabs so good in sc2 compared to bw and why you get many, many more base trades. Ironically, base trades and backstabs happen the most in the matchups most like BW in terms of skill, defense, and positioning: tvz and tvt. How does this lend itself to big 1a armies? Because if you are devoting say 15-20 supply to a distraction or secondary maneuver, that means your main army will have that much less supply. Therefore it's much easier for you to just get run over by a-move, and that will lose you the game outright in most cases because it's so hard to comeback. You can overcome this advantage to some degree as defense isn't entirely meaningless, particularly in tvz and tvt, but an extra 20ish supply is a lot more meaningful in most cases than a good position. In bw, position is much more important than army size, and you'd routinely see large armies improperly wielded be defeated or warded off by well employed tactics or setups. Someone like Flash couldn't make a fraction of the comebacks he did in bw playing sc2 because it's just too easy to bully your opponent around once you have a lead and you don't have much leverage to 'outplay' someone when behind. Furthermore there are a number of mechanics in place which very effectively dissuade spread out forces in favor of gathering one big army: Terran drops in tvp are absolutely terrifying, but these are more than "balanced" out by feedback, warpins, and blink. Trying to harass past a certain point is often just going to lead to wasted units, which could in turn lower your main army strength for a critical moment and make you vulnerable to getting a moved to death. In TvT the combination of vikings, sensor towers, great mobility of marines and hellions, and powerful turrets has made it very difficult in general to effectively harass behind a certain point. No this problem isn't going to be fixed with time. It has nothing to do with how young the game is, only a little bit with how bad players are, and everything with how the game is designed. Until that is addressed, the only way things can change is by drastically altering maps to promote more defense and large-scale combat which can help but only to a small degree. Blizzard designed the game to favor offense and ease of use: these are the results of such decisions.
Great post! I really agree that it is easy to base trade in SC2. Something that you kind of touch upon is how easy it is to snowball into a victory in SC2.
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The games like a year old. We went from no macro to lots of macro. it depends on the maps and people figuring out ways to attack. toss are just getting into warp prisim harass and zerg are getting into muta roach ling attacking. As of now if you can get to 200/200 with no1 attacking you and you win people dont see a need 2 change it up until a problem arises. thats how the game goes. Im sure i could find examples of a random early Sc1 game that doesnt have that much aggression compared to a random game in sc2
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On November 23 2011 14:22 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 14:19 JDub wrote:On November 23 2011 14:13 Doraemon wrote:On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote: I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.
Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark. the problem is: sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game that's undeniable Did you even watch the Thorzain v. MC game he was talking about? No that's not undeniable. It's wrong sigh. how can you make an argument through a pool of 1 game. i have watched 6 years of bw and since the release sc2, and that was my honest opinion. All I was trying to do was refute your blanket statement about late game sc2, hence using a single game as a counter example. As someone who has watched almost no BW I will not make any blanket statements about either game. All I know is that I love watching SC2, and I can remember quite a few games that were action packed and provide counter examples to some of the arguments people are making.
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i dont know about that
when i see flash do his standard 15cc into death mech march he has the same passive play that terrans do in sc2 once they hit a army size that can match up to the enemy they will consider moving out.
of course, minimal harass via vultures/helions/rine drops is about all they will do
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Why does everything need to be compared to broodwar? Not that I disagree.
This game is still young, let the meta game flourish and I expect to see advanced action packed games in the future.
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I'm actually kind of shocked to read that browder say those type of things and ignore pros and fan concerns, that reminded me ALOT of ghostcrawler when I used to play WoW...but at least they clearly stated they want sc2 as eSport.
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Again with the comparison of SC2 vs BW. When will people understand that sc2 is a different game and will never be "BW". Anyways I don't agree that Sc2 is "passive", patches and changes made it that way. When sc2 came out, games were very fast and players tend to go 1 base. Builds from 2 gate zealot to 9/10 barracks are all changed because people want longer games and Blizzard listened. Supply depot before rax, zealot time/warp gate increased and largers are some changes that make sc2 "passive". Also the game is new so we can't say a lot from it but basing on HOTs, sc2 will be more passive. New defensive units like swarm host, replicator, shredder will award passive players.
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On November 23 2011 14:41 Lewan72 wrote: This game is still young, let the meta game flourish and I expect to see advanced action packed games in the future.
everyone wants that to happen. but there is always the fear that it won't
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On November 23 2011 14:24 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 14:04 Korste wrote: I'm interested to see how sc2 games will change when/if the bw players come over. What are Flash,Jaedong,Bisu is going to do with the extra 300 apm ? even boxer,nada,july are players with great achievement under their belt can't do much for the game or revolutionize the game to the extend you wanted like Bisu's PvZ revolution against savior . DB with his statement that " If you don't like sc2 play Bw " is not a attitude ,a developer like him should have , At least valve are actually listening to the pro's with the upcoming Dota 2 and CS Global offensive , it's good to see old names like Ksharp,Frod,Nothing back in action .
Given that an individual blink stalker micro is 18apm, I think they will have plenty of things to do. We are nowhere near the cap, plenty of units in the game are not even close to currently being perfectly microed, and there is still huge gaps between certain 'pro' players macro abilities (Startale Bomber vs ESC Goody as an example).
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In BW late game is passive too.
I lost a couple games just by being the one who attacked. Mainly PvZ and I beat someone for doing the same to me.
It sounds exactly the same to me but looks easier.
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A lot of SC2 players are confusing macro games with passive games, they are mutually exclusive.
In SC2 we had passive 1 base play, then passive 2 base play, and now passive multibase play.
On November 23 2011 14:38 soullogik wrote: i dont know about that
when i see flash do his standard 15cc into death mech march he has the same passive play that terrans do in sc2 once they hit a army size that can match up to the enemy they will consider moving out.
of course, minimal harass via vultures/helions/rine drops is about all they will do
But that's Flash in general, and not many people like his games. The second best Terran is Fantasy, and he is the complete opposite, basically the MMA of BW. Then look at Bisu and Jaedong.
On November 23 2011 14:49 Larsa23 wrote: In BW late game is passive too.
I lost a couple games just by being the one who attacked. Mainly PvZ and I beat someone for doing the same to me.
It sounds exactly the same to me but looks easier.
I have to just o_O at this. With PvZ you have to attack all the time, tonnes of zealot pressure, harass with corsairs, drop DT's, storm drops, reaver drops, etc, or else you will just lose.
If you are Z and you like attacking, try hydra,lurker drops. Turn your hydras into eggs at the choke and put lurkers behind it so P can't defend his main. That or develop your muta micro and go mutas.
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On November 23 2011 14:50 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 14:49 Larsa23 wrote: In BW late game is passive too.
I lost a couple games just by being the one who attacked. Mainly PvZ and I beat someone for doing the same to me.
It sounds exactly the same to me but looks easier. I have to just o_O at this. With PvZ you have to attack all the time, tonnes of zealot pressure, harass with corsairs, drop DT's, storm drops, reaver drops, etc, or else you will just lose.
Yeah but that's just small harrassment.
No one actually sends an entire army without risking a counter attack. In PvZ most people do storm drops and things like that late game. Every time I see a Protoss player try to engage with his army he gets owned that's why they just try doing small harrass like you said.
Also TvT has always been boring from what I remember and ZvT is more mobile and back and forth.
PvZ and PvT are about small harrassments and waiting for your opponent to fuck up a big attack.
Which is exactly what he said.
If I make it to late game PvT I never engage Terran ground unless I have the entire map or something and if I choose to do an arbiter recall there's nothing to stop him from screwing up my base so I don't see a difference
Also White-Ra finishes a lot of his games fast and he looks like his games have non stop action.
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On November 23 2011 14:38 soullogik wrote: i dont know about that
when i see flash do his standard 15cc into death mech march he has the same passive play that terrans do in sc2 once they hit a army size that can match up to the enemy they will consider moving out.
of course, minimal harass via vultures/helions/rine drops is about all they will do
It's call economic aggression when flash does that he is capitalizing on gaining that extra resources and gas to built a mech army and if he tries to move out during that moment of time without having a solid ground mech army , one mistake and he's dead , hence for flash he usually says okay do what ever you want zerg , I am flash I can turtle and get 200/200 and win you .
However in recent times he doesn't do that any more ,well at least for these current pro league season , he seems to go for 1 rax fe very frequently now days.
Compared to flash if you look at players like Iris who are super aggressive in their games in his younger days in matches like ggplay v iris daum msl . Constant dropping of mnm , getting map control , killing drones at the mineral line , sniping zerg gas . Seldom do we see such passiveness in broodwar games.
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On November 23 2011 14:54 Larsa23 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 14:50 sluggaslamoo wrote:On November 23 2011 14:49 Larsa23 wrote: In BW late game is passive too.
I lost a couple games just by being the one who attacked. Mainly PvZ and I beat someone for doing the same to me.
It sounds exactly the same to me but looks easier. I have to just o_O at this. With PvZ you have to attack all the time, tonnes of zealot pressure, harass with corsairs, drop DT's, storm drops, reaver drops, etc, or else you will just lose. Yeah but that's just small harrassment. No one actually sends an entire army without risking a counter attack. Also TvT has always been boring from what I remember and ZvT is more mobile and back and forth. PvZ and PvT are about small harrassments and waiting for your opponent to fuck up a big attack. Which is exactly what he said.
Huh? He said BW was passive. o_O
Supposedly boring TvT + Show Spoiler +
PvT + Show Spoiler +
PvZ + Show Spoiler +
Hurrr
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