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camooT
United States1354 Posts
On May 30 2005 14:03 GroT wrote: oh yeah and they're slow i'm sorry, but you just pulled this one out of your ass didn't you? they're the exact same speed as the tank, and just a BIT behind the goliath. I just tested this, and the ghost came in about 3 seconds behind the goliath across a 128x128 map, tied with the tank, and beat the carrier by miles. | ||
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January
123 Posts
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camooT
United States1354 Posts
you've only been here 2 weeks. please don't talk out of your ass until you've earned the right to do so. | ||
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ihatett
United States2289 Posts
Unfortunately for you, you can't counter attack with your ghosts somewhere else. Also, if they stop carrier production and start pumping more goons + temp, you have completely worthless units. I think it's best to just keep pumping gols, because with those you can raze expos, etc, and actually force the carriers to come to you. edit: but I'm sure they are fun as hell to use. edit2: now my post makes sense x_x | ||
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Chanoipy
Canada320 Posts
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January
123 Posts
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GosuAmerican
United States347 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7232 Posts
Seriously, 1 in a 100 tvp games a situation *might* come up where you could use them. It's been a long time since I saw a game that was won by ghosts where wraith/goli wouldn't have. How many have you seen? :p | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
12 is wayy too much, its not like vessel tvz or temp pvz lets say your opponent decided to go carrier (im talking about 5+) now you can make 2-3 ghosts and invest the rest of your money on gols and upgrade covert ops 50/50 lock 200/200 and lets say 3 ghost 75/225 thats a 325/475 investment that guarantee you at least 3 carrier kill .. at least 1500/750 the point is to lockdown a part of the carrier fleet so 1- they are less so they are weaker 2- if the flee, you got free kill if you got 3 gas, go ahead but if you only have 2, just pump gols and upg, you want ghosts sure it is very micro intensive, if you cannot use them, dont if you think you can, dont abuse of them and good luck locking those annoying starship! | ||
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Brad~
United States63 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
Ghosts really suck because: 1. Their ground attack completely suck. They won't do a thing against goons/zeals. 2. Carriers, especially with obs, will see your ghosts coming and run away before your ghosts can do any damage. 3. Carriers will fly out destroying your base, your expansions, your critical buildings while your ghosts slowly chase the carriers by foot. By the time your ghosts get to lockdown range, the carriers will see it and fly away and go on another trip to take out one of your other expansions. Repeat this sentence until all your bases are destroyed. 4. Storm will annihilate ghosts. Bring a shuttle with high templars along with carriers if you see ghosts. 5. When P see you making ghosts, he will produce less carriers and alot more ground units. Your ghosts won't be able to handle any type of toss ground units at all. At least goliaths will be able to put up a fight. Ghosts won't. 6. Ghosts die way, WAY too quickly. Their hit points is way too low for them to be viable. 7. Even if you DO manage to lockdown, that doesn't mean that you successfully killed the carrier. You still have to run goliaths over to kill them. This means not only you need to invest in ghosts, you will also have to invest in goliaths / wraiths in addition to them as well, which is a huge investment. 8. Alot of times, your ghosts will get in the way of goliaths, making it even harder to aim for the carriers correctly. If you think microing goliaths vs carriers with tanks in the way is hard, wait until you micro goliaths vs carriers with tanks and ghosts in the way. Not only you have to take a huge amount of time to micro your ghosts to lockdown the carriers, you will also spend a joyful amount of time microing them out of the way of goliaths. 9. If P see you making ghosts, he will make high templars and hallucinate his carriers. This pretty much makes your ghosts almost useless as you try to lockdown hallucinated carriers and can't figure out which ones are the real ones you need to lockdown. 10. Ghosts take a huge amount of time before they can become anything viable in use. Ghosts require the highest tech tree. Ghosts require energy. They take a huge amount of time to build. And even after they are built, they still need to wait until 100 energy before they can start doing anything of use. 11. Ghosts take a huge amount of micro. Sure, it can be done, but goliaths are so much easier to micro. The time you take to micro ghosts, you can expand, macro more units / buildings, do so many other things that pretty much negates the value of ghosts. Conclusion: Ghosts suck. I'd like to see balance change with ghosts to make them more viable in games. | ||
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camooT
United States1354 Posts
1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths. 2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts. 3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds. 4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough. 5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then. 6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force. 7.) you can lock down shuttles. 8.) 5-6 ghosts won't make it hard to micro goliaths against carriers *roll eyes*. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
With regards to this, Ghost is only a good counter and viable (with regards to human capabilities) vs Carriers, in which they will be truly cost efficient. At this point, since upgrades seem to be so important to all of you, you should already have a science facility (which is bullshit, nobody will have a sci facility), which means that if you are going for 2/2, you can pay 50/50 for a damned Covert Ops and Ghosts. Gas is a huge factor, which is very true, but if you are slow pushing (which is the only way he can go carriers) you will ideally have 3+ gas nodes if you start taking map control. All in all, it's definitely not a bad idea and should definitely be considered more than initially flamed, especially by people like Empyrean and Cygnus  . Also, Ghost isn't a bad fighter vs Zealot, although ideally it shouldn't come down to that XD. | ||
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x2fst
1272 Posts
On May 31 2005 01:12 camooT wrote: I know you're a great player, but it's obvious you haven't read most of the things i've had to say. 1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths. 2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts. 3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds. 4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough. 5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then. 6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force. 7.) you can lock down shuttles. 8.) 5-6 ghosts won't make it hard to micro goliaths against carriers *roll eyes*. im sure everyone will see the true value of ghosts when you demonstrate how they can be used by people at low, medium and high levels:D;) why not post a replay of yourself using ghosts if they are so easy to use / cost effective?  EDIT: On May 31 2005 01:58 exalted wrote: Ghost isn't a bad fighter vs Zealot, although ideally it shouldn't come down to that XD. OMGOMGOMG NO!!!!  p;)ghosts suck so much balls vs everything its insane, the 1-10 ghosts your going to have wont do shit vs ANYTHING in an actual fight (i.e: the cant be used for non-magic purposes) sorry but i just had to vent dsome frustration as as i cant fit my penis into my pants as it is too enourmous  | ||
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NettleS
522 Posts
In other words , Ghost is to T what Queen is to Z , except queen is better :p | ||
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
it takes way too long too get them. the gas and micro is just better spend elsewhere. | ||
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camooT
United States1354 Posts
On May 31 2005 01:58 exalted wrote: I hate camoot with a passion as a human being and as a player i don't understand you worth a dick. do you just pick grudges with everyone that comes by? unlike most theorycrafters, i don't make posts like this before i've tried it at least once. here are two reps where i went ghosts. the first one, i locked down 6 carriers (didn't use hotkeys even, because there were so few), which essentially turned the tide of the game. the second one, my opponent doesn't go carriers when i get ghosts (he didn't see them, i had them hidden for a while until i made sure he wouldnt get ghosts), but if he had (and most P players would have), i would've locked them down immediately, and the game would be mine in moments. both games i won, but only in the first one did ghosts turn the tide. i think the potential for that was there in the 2nd game. i'm not very good, but neither are my opponents. proof of concept. http://s26.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0VMZ91BPGF2JE2FRE9RY89BITX http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2HP7TKLG100PF3GRSYFY1IVUBW he's right though. ghosts suck balls against zeals, given the gas cost. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
I would worry less about the power of ghosts and improving your micro/macro at that. If I play you PvT and I go Carriers and you lock them down, that'd be irrelevant becuase you'd already have 500000000 zeals and goons destroying you at the same time. | ||
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camooT
United States1354 Posts
On May 31 2005 02:59 exalted wrote: The thing is camoot if you macroed better and played better, Protoss wouldn't even be able to go carriers ala Grot's advice [which is carriers are bad and Terrans will not give Protoss an opportunity to get them, and if they have to let the Protoss get them they would lose to anything else anyway] (which is 99% accurate and true). please come back to the real world. we are talking about a game where the protoss DOES go carriers, and you spot them before they've begun production. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On May 31 2005 03:01 camooT wrote: please come back to the real world. we are talking about a game where the protoss DOES go carriers, and you spot them before they've begun production. Do you have problems reading? Not to derail this thread - I did some personal testing - the Ghost AI is not flawless (say, like, Hydra AI) and sometimes acts like Reaver with regards to Lockdown - which is a huge 200/200 for the upgrade (I thought it was 100/100 or something cheaper). I think Ghost's are only useful with a Terran slowpush and a Protoss doing this as a counter - but Tfeigns comments about hallucination as well as the fact that you are decreasing tank count, upgrades, and the fact that Carriers can be used for harass (instead of Ghosts which are only a defensive measure) have made me rethink my position on this. The huge risk reward is far greater than a queen however - and I feel queens are definitely underused, with regards to parasite, ensnare, and even infesting a Command Center - the ability to lockdown 6 carriers is a huge amount given the small relative price of a ghost with regards to the price of the cars themselves. | ||
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