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Norway28706 Posts
the cost isn't an issue at all when fighting against carriers. not getting ghosts because of the resource investment is ridiculous as hell, 4 ghosts with lockdown is more useful than an extra 10 goliaths if you're fighting against 8+ carriers. (and if you have a science facility, which you should have, that's only 50 gas more than 10 goliaths and 750 minerals less, which you could use on 10 turrets if you want to. )
time investment, meh, you should ideally start teching for ghosts the instant you see any signs of carriers. (be it a working cybernetics or starports or the carriers themselves. )
personally I've had GREAT success with dropping 4 ghosts + 1 tank vs expansions.. normally I'm capable of telling when the protoss is likely to drop units anyway, so I focus on the ghosts right when it's about to happen. or you can drop 2 ghosts 2 scvs 1 tank, start building turrets asap thus forcing him to drop while you're still paying attention to it..
the main reason why people don't build ghosts is not that they're not worth it, it's that they're not accustomed to building them. that goes for me as well, although I do build them, just not as much as I should.
and what you say about vulture users being more likely to benefit from them, that's true. I rarely have more than 3 machine shops even if I have 3 gas expansions going.
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the thinking terran goes m&m vs carriers, fuck ghosts 
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I know you're a great player, but it's obvious you haven't read most of the things i've had to say.
I read the entire thread before I made my post.
1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths.
The micro required to use them, the resources in which you have to invest, and the time in which you must put into them before they become of any use, and the risks involved as I've explained altogether is not worth the tradeoff.
2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts.
That's 8 less goliaths missing from your army and a whole lot more micro to manage. Protoss WILL switch to more ground if he sees you making ghosts, which you will be easily overrun when he has a large ground army.
3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds.
3-4 seconds more of your time than goliaths for each ghost add up alot. Every second counts. 3-4 seconds is enough time for you to pump units out of 8 factories, expand, etc. Again, the tradeoffs as I've explained is just not worth it.
4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough.
Carriers are not much slower than ghosts. They're almost the same speed. The only thing is...carriers can fly. Ghosts can't. Carriers will fly around and harass you to death and limit your resources as your ghosts chase them on foot. They can easily fly away if your ghosts get near and start an attack elsewhere.
5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then.
When toss goes carriers late game, it's pretty much a must that he has a great amount of resources. He WILL have enough for templars, no doubt about it at all. Most toss gets templars in addition to carriers anyway, regardless if you go ghosts or not. If the toss is any decent, he will research hallucinations if he see you go ghosts. I get hallucinations for my carriers anyway regardless if I see ghosts or not. Even with just 3 templars can get you 6 more carriers. They work wonders against goliaths. I just can't imagine how ghosts can stand any chance at all against hallucinated carriers. Also remember that ghosts pretty much carry a "plz storm me" sign with them vs templars.
6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force.
EXACTLY. You're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. That's why if P see you making ghosts, he will switch over to ground forces and will overrun you. Goliaths can be used as anti air as well as fighing units. Ghosts can't. If you go goliaths, even if P switches over to ground, you will still be able to stand a good chance. If you go ghosts, if P switches over to ground, you stand much less of a chance. Templar hallucinations + storms + bigger ground army&less carriers will make waste to your ghosts strat.
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OMG I've got 5 ghosts so that means 10 carriers locked down ! OMGOMGOMG! Then you can nuke and killallthestuffanddestroyallandhecantkillmesinceimcloakedand2nukekillallandblablabla
Play a decent TvP on a map like, say, LT where the protoss goes carrier. See if everything goes like you imagined it, if the game even goes that far.
Boy, the theorycraft is killing me. We are no koreans with 8 hands and an IQ of 180 BTW, so you can't always say "BUT KOREANS USE IT". Hey, I might as well say that the protoss just get dark archons and feedback the ghosts !
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Sometimes I wonder if certain MSG board users played the game or simply read the instruction booklet.
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tfeign, you are my hero ;-)
Some people fail to see that a 10% chance of winning 100$ in a lottery is a lot better than a 1% chance to win 500$....
And you didn't even mention feedback, which is a real bitch on sucky little spellcasters like queens or ghosts ^^
Toss carrier cliff abuse will make it EXTREMLY hard to get in even one successfull lock. It gets even harder, the bigger the map.
Locking an interceptor is a really great way to waste 5 seconds of your valuable time and get almost mad.
Finally succeeding "teh gosu" and locking a carrier over cliff/water and not being able to kill it with goliath can drive saner persons than camooT into madness ;-)
Not to mention Storm + Feedback can completely destroy your wannabe "counter" to carriers. To sum it up: It doesn't work. Once you are in a position where it would work, a tiny, 1 minute change in toss army composition will make it not work again. So either you lose or you lose.
Ghosts suck in TvP... almost as hard as vs Zerg. Only vs Terran BC users do I see the validity of ghosts in competitive play.
Edit: Five pages of this thread, and just when I post it, 2 posts above me someone mentions feedback :/
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I don't think using ghosts to lockdown carriers is quite as unfeasible as people make out, seeing how often terran's manage to find the resources and micro to use wraiths, but there's some things no one's mentioned.
1: The toss will almost always have observers with their carriers (I know I do), as they want to be ok vs wraiths. So you really won't have much room for error.
2: Even if you lock a carrier down, it doesn't mean it's dead. It will either be attacking from over a cliff (and so possibly out of reach of a lot of stuff, especially as lockdowned units kinda drift a little just after being hit), or attacking along with the protoss ground army, meaning you'd still have to win the battle to get the 'free kill'.
As people have said, ghosts are much better for gaying up cliffs. It is ridiculously demoralising to get a shuttle locked down and hence lose your expansion; makes you feel like you're not in the same league as you're opponent.
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i could def say ghosts could be improved in several ways without having any noticable impact on the game. this is the #1 way to tell a unit is underpowered.
u could decrease their build time
u could decrease their gas cost
u could decrease the cost of their ability upgrades
u could even decrease the energy cost (slightly) of everything they do
u could even increase their dmg
and their hp
and they still wouldn't break the game.
therefore, ghost are at least slightly underpowered. q.e.d.
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On May 31 2005 09:35 TserHossHiBreed wrote:
OMG I've got 5 ghosts so that means 10 carriers locked down ! OMGOMGOMG! Then you can nuke and killallthestuffanddestroyallandhecantkillmesinceimcloakedand2nukekillallandblablabla
Play a decent TvP on a map like, say, LT where the protoss goes carrier. See if everything goes like you imagined it, if the game even goes that far.
Boy, the theorycraft is killing me. We are no koreans with 8 hands and an IQ of 180 BTW, so you can't always say "BUT KOREANS USE IT". Hey, I might as well say that the protoss just get dark archons and feedback the ghosts !
omg loser feedback is teh pwn!
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When a carrier is locked down, it's removed from any unit grouping it was associated with, and isn't put back in after the effects of lockdown wear off. So it's yet another annoying thing that the Protoss will have to look after.
I don't think professionals have given ghosts the attention they deserve against carriers. I think once they do, it's quite probable that they'll become something of a standard.
Just like what happened with defilers?
I still think queens SUCK though.
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can someone find us a game in the last 2 seasons (of any league) where a guy lost to carriers that possibly could have had a better chance had he went ghosts?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 31 2005 23:10 Chris307 wrote:
When a carrier is locked down, it's removed from any unit grouping it was associated with, and isn't put back in after the effects of lockdown wear off. So it's yet another annoying thing that the Protoss will have to look after.
I don't think professionals have given ghosts the attention they deserve against carriers. I think once they do, it's quite probable that they'll become something of a standard.
Just like what happened with defilers?
I still think queens SUCK though.
I think that it works the same as when you put units of a group in a shuttle - if you click on their group number while they are in there and other parts of the group are not, when they emerge, they will no longer be part of it.
Whereas if you don't click until you've let them out, they'll still be in it.
I think so at least, no one ever locks my shit down (not for the past 2 years probably--v)
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Norway28706 Posts
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
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YOU CAN RECALL LOCKED CARRIERS INTO YOUR OWN BASE SAFETY MAKING LOCK NOT A SYNONYM OF KILL OKAY ?
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omg loser feedback is teh pwn!
Haha
And holorin, recall is not always at your simple disposal, and anyhow killing a locked carrier remains a problem because when your 8 ghosts died while locking 2-3 carriers there's still other carriers and the big P army anyway.
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Ghosts are useful on a map like.... paranoid android, I think. Because T can play very safely and hold the bridges while taking his half of the map. It doesn't really hurt as much to let P expand since you can pretty much have equal bases soon enough yourself. Once you're rich in gas, a few ghosts really help vs the arb/carrier tech that P is forced to use (since the bridges really hamper ground combat vs superior positioned T troops).
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On June 01 2005 06:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
i guess i couldn't believe that either until i saw ur zvt rep where u Infest his CC after a huge muta attack 
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On June 01 2005 06:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
Queens SUCK
Complete waste of gas that could've otherwise been used on a much better tech unit: DEFILERS
I WILL GO DOWN WITH THIS SHIP IF I HAVE TO
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On June 01 2005 09:29 Holorin wrote:
YOU CAN RECALL LOCKED CARRIERS INTO YOUR OWN BASE SAFETY MAKING LOCK NOT A SYNONYM OF KILL OKAY ?
lol
recall + carriers = 1 game on 5000
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On June 01 2005 12:38 SainT wrote:i guess i couldn't believe that either until i saw ur zvt rep where u Infest his CC after a huge muta attack
Yeah, I can't believe this replay wasn't posted more widely all over the net. It was the single replay in a year or so that really had a : "Wow, a new strategy with underused units, that actually works" effect on me :D
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EPT
