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first of all:
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=23622¤tpage=2#29
I think that ghosts are severely underrated. Most of the objections to ghosts have to do with one of the following:
1.) Gas
2.) Micro
The argument is that no one will have the micro to be able to do a ghost vs carrier push, and that ghosts are a waste of gas. However, if each ghost locked down just one carrier, they've just killed double their value in units. I don't see how locking down carriers is difficult, especially when the toss player has just 5-6, and is harassing your expos etc.
First of all, carriers are ENORMOUS targets. Interceptors rarely fly over them, so you're not going to accidently lock one down. It can be more difficult when they're stacked, but 12 ghosts will be able to get at least 5-6, depending on skill of micro. You have to hotkey your ghosts from 1-0, but usually it's worth the inconvenience. Being able to press 1l2l3l4l5l6l7l8l9l0l is probably the most difficult part, but I've learned to do this in a little more than one second
just from practicing pregame (1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a).
Anyways, I'm not the greatest player, but I'd like to start this discussion again.
p.s. i have a demo replay of me locking down 12 carriers with 6 ghosts on a test map, where can I upload?
p.s.s. i also have an example of this in a real game.
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well maybe u cna upload it on gosureplys.net, and if u want to check some lockdown stuff, check boxers replay pack or his lockdown pack too 
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imo ghosts really rock vs heavy carrier toss
and its not that hard to do.the problem is that normally u dont have the tech and vs evrything else than carrs they suck.
but if u already have acad ,sf and ur confident with ur cloning/speed/micro whatever do it
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Sweden33719 Posts
I use them if I have a solid eco sometimes :o You dont need to key them, just clone by scanning carriers and sending them from afar ;>
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 30 2005 12:58 SainT wrote:well maybe u cna upload it on gosureplys.net, and if u want to check some lockdown stuff, check boxers replay pack or his lockdown pack too
Lockdown pack?
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No one will argue that they don't have potential. Most people just don't want to go out of their way for ghost tech and then micro'ing them.
IMO they are pretty useful, either for nukes or lockdown, mostly because protoss aren't used to dealing with them.
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It's not going out of the way. You should already have a sci fac. for upgrades, and it's just 2-3 rax away for ghost production. Did I mention that ghosts are also the be-all end-all of arbitors and shuttles?
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I don't think so much ghosts are under-rated, but they are certainly under-used.
Theoretically they would serve ideally against BC's and Carriers, and I guess even Drop shuttles. Personally, I feel I overlook them, because simply they aren't the conventional way of playing, and since I haven't used them in the past, I feel it to be somewhat of a risk. Also, considering the efffort placed in buid/tech time/resources (e.g. sight range, lockdown, build ghost) in obtaining functional ghosts, and then the probability of messing up the micro, otherwise making the effort seemingly futile, it would indeed put you back quite abit in the game.
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I find its generally better to invest the gas that would be needed for ghost on upgrades
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On May 30 2005 13:06 bburn wrote:
I find its generally better to invest the gas that would be needed for ghost on upgrades
That's like saying, "I would rather sacrifice my tank production for upgrades." Keep in mind that carriers are 350 min, 250 gas. If you can use ghosts efficiently (and as I've said, it's NOT hard at all), then your single ghost will be doing damage 3-4 times his value. That allows you to sacrifice goliath or tank production for upgrades.
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I've said it before... I'll say it again... 3-3 > Ghosts
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I had somewhere a replay, TvT, what was an awesome game. Anyway other T made BCs, and was expoing to 12 on LT. Other had Wraiths + Ghost, dropshipped ghosts to there, lockdowned all about 8-10 BC:s and Wraiths killed all. It was pure art 
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United States12238 Posts
I tried to go Ghosts against a Carrier toss and it failed miserably. If they have Observers or any forward units, they will see your Ghosts coming and flee, usually taking out another one of your bases in the process. Carriers are faster than Ghosts. Ghosts are great against BCs though.
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United States12238 Posts
On May 30 2005 13:19 iNsaNe- wrote:I had somewhere a replay, TvT, what was an awesome game. Anyway other T made BCs, and was expoing to 12 on LT. Other had Wraiths + Ghost, dropshipped ghosts to there, lockdowned all about 8-10 BC:s and Wraiths killed all. It was pure art
Sounds like Boxer vs Chunsang to me -_-
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17015 Posts
What, Boxer vs. Chunsang?
Anyway, I think the main argument is the fact that unless the Protoss goes pure Carrier, Ghosts aren't worth the investment. Carrier/Dragoon or Carrier/Zealot/Templar is more likely than pure Carrier, and other units or another upgrade will be more effective in dealing with the situation.
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17015 Posts
Same time post
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On May 30 2005 13:22 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 13:19 iNsaNe- wrote:I had somewhere a replay, TvT, what was an awesome game. Anyway other T made BCs, and was expoing to 12 on LT. Other had Wraiths + Ghost, dropshipped ghosts to there, lockdowned all about 8-10 BC:s and Wraiths killed all. It was pure art Sounds like Boxer vs Chunsang to me -_-
I am pretty sure it was Boxer vs Zodiac (don't hate me if they are the same person!)
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On May 30 2005 13:19 JaySmurff wrote:
I've said it before... I'll say it again... 3-3 > Ghosts
On May 30 2005 13:10 camooT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 13:06 bburn wrote:
I find its generally better to invest the gas that would be needed for ghost on upgrades That's like saying, "I would rather sacrifice my tank production for upgrades." Keep in mind that carriers are 350 min, 250 gas. If you can use ghosts efficiently (and as I've said, it's NOT hard at all), then your single ghost will be doing damage 3-4 times his value. That allows you to sacrifice goliath or tank production for upgrades.
Excal: If your goliaths can shoot at the carriers, your ghosts can lock them down. unless you're cloning your ghosts, but that's a really bad way to do it.
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17015 Posts
Camoot: If your Ghosts can lockdown the carriers, then your Goliaths can shoot them down.
Also, I'd rather have 3/3 upgrades than 12 Ghosts.
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On May 30 2005 13:45 Empyrean wrote:
Camoot: If your Ghosts can lockdown the carriers, then your Goliaths can shoot them down.
Also, I'd rather have 3/3 upgrades than 12 Ghosts.
Goliaths are 100/50. Ghosts are 25/75. Ghosts need only 1 shot. Goliaths need many. Goliaths can't cloak.
Yes, ghosts die more easily, but carriers wont have time to manually target all of them before they unleash lockdown.
ok, let me go over the argument with upgrades again. If you produce ghosts, you will need less goliaths than normal. You can use the money saved from less goliath production for upgrades.
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On May 30 2005 13:03 camooT wrote:
It's not going out of the way. You should already have a sci fac. for upgrades, and it's just 2-3 rax away for ghost production. Did I mention that ghosts are also the be-all end-all of arbitors and shuttles?
u know, why dont we put bicicle tires on our cars? there is less friction from the ground. therefore we get more speed! oh cuz they just wont work! :D
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ghosts basicly suck in every way a unit can suck
they're costly (mostly because of all the tech you're buying, but also because of the sheer gas cost of just one ghost), they take long to tech to, they die easily, they're not very effective, they're not versatile (you have to go out of your way to imagine a situation where they'd be useful), they can't work by themselves and they're as micro intensive as it gets
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United States12238 Posts
On May 30 2005 13:43 camooT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 13:19 JaySmurff wrote:
I've said it before... I'll say it again... 3-3 > Ghosts Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 13:10 camooT wrote:On May 30 2005 13:06 bburn wrote:
I find its generally better to invest the gas that would be needed for ghost on upgrades That's like saying, "I would rather sacrifice my tank production for upgrades." Keep in mind that carriers are 350 min, 250 gas. If you can use ghosts efficiently (and as I've said, it's NOT hard at all), then your single ghost will be doing damage 3-4 times his value. That allows you to sacrifice goliath or tank production for upgrades. Excal: If your goliaths can shoot at the carriers, your ghosts can lock them down. unless you're cloning your ghosts, but that's a really bad way to do it.
Cloning your Ghosts is the most effective way to do it unless you want to give up a ton of hotkey slots, which is just not worth it in my opinion. Also Carriers don't run from small Goliath groups, they engage them because they take so little damage. They will run from even individual Ghosts because they pose much more of a threat. Protoss players are much more careful around Ghosts than they are around Goliaths.
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probaly the toss will fly away with the carriers, and the zea+goon mix with kill all your ghosts before u can use them
=/
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u know, why dont we put bicicle tires on our cars? there is less friction from the ground. therefore we get more speed! oh cuz they just wont work! :D
you're incredibly funny and witty and smart!
grot:
you will already have a sci fac., + 200/200 lockdown (cloaking isn't neccessary because they'll have obs anyway) + 50/50 covert ops, + 25/75 x12. 550 min / 1150. those 12 ghosts only have to take out 5 carriers to make them worth it (250 x 5 = 1250 gas). normally, they will take out at least 6-7, + arbs + shuttles or what not, even goons if you have good enough micro (done it), if you know how to micro them. you will be able to build fewer goliaths and transfer back to vults faster, thus you'll have plenty of gas to get upgrades.
i've done the math. they're costly, but so are carriers.
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On May 30 2005 14:22 Kacas wrote:
probaly the toss will fly away with the carriers, and the zea+goon mix with kill all your ghosts before u can use them
=/
why do people think that you're going to send your ghosts away all alone? toss goes carriers because he can't break your land superiority, so do you really think his troops will be able to overwhelm you that easily? if you'd read the thread, i already mentioned that if your goliaths can shoot carriers, then ghost can lock them down.
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On May 30 2005 14:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:
Cloning your Ghosts is the most effective way to do it unless you want to give up a ton of hotkey slots, which is just not worth it in my opinion. Also Carriers don't run from small Goliath groups, they engage them because they take so little damage. They will run from even individual Ghosts because they pose much more of a threat. Protoss players are much more careful around Ghosts than they are around Goliaths.
that's a good point. however, protoss can't run forever. if a ghost + goliath combo can scare his carriers off, then you can defend more easily while running over his bases with your ground superiority. there's also the fact that ghosts will almost always suprise the toss player. if you wait until carriers choose to confront your main force over ground, you might get a few lockdowns. still, if there's any disadvantage to ghosts, you've just pointed it out. you can't really figure something like that out without experimenting. i still feel that ghosts will be able to catch the carriers off guard eventually. they can't hide on high ground or water forever.
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i can see the potiental of ghost in a push with the use of lock down, especially against zelot bombs :D
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For the cost thingy: about how 12 ghosts only need to take down 5-6 carriers for them to make up for their cost: isn't that math a bit wrong because protoss should have more gas than terran?
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only do it if ur pro or in front of obs if u want to make a show
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Why is nobody even mentioning nukes? I saw this rep of boxer (I think) killing 2 nexuses (nexi?) in about 30 - 60 secs with 1 dropship, 2 ghosts, 2 medics, a vulture, and a science vessel with emp. It was nuts.
Nukes are almost never used, and I think they are even more underated than ghosts. I don't think they are a waist of money (as many think) against P (cause of EMP), if you're good enough to use em.
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On May 30 2005 15:14 Purind wrote:
For the cost thingy: about how 12 ghosts only need to take down 5-6 carriers for them to make up for their cost: isn't that math a bit wrong because protoss should have more gas than terran?
he should? besides, 5-6 carriers is a minimum. you ought to be able to get much more.
also, 12 ghosts is much more than you need, unless he has a fuckload of carriers. i wouldn't get more than 8 or 9..
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17015 Posts
Carriers are faster than ghosts. A single Ghost will prompt Carriers to run, while the other units (Zealot/Templar, Dragoon, etc.) will kill the Ghosts.
Simple as that.
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On May 30 2005 13:37 Malmis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 13:22 Excalibur_Z wrote:On May 30 2005 13:19 iNsaNe- wrote:I had somewhere a replay, TvT, what was an awesome game. Anyway other T made BCs, and was expoing to 12 on LT. Other had Wraiths + Ghost, dropshipped ghosts to there, lockdowned all about 8-10 BC:s and Wraiths killed all. It was pure art Sounds like Boxer vs Chunsang to me -_- I am pretty sure it was Boxer vs Zodiac (don't hate me if they are the same person!)
Possibly.
I'm sure most people have seen it before, since it's on Pimpest Plays 2002.
http://sclegacy.com/features/pimpestplays_2002.php#2
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On May 30 2005 14:26 camooT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2005 14:22 Kacas wrote:
probaly the toss will fly away with the carriers, and the zea+goon mix with kill all your ghosts before u can use them
=/ why do people think that you're going to send your ghosts away all alone? toss goes carriers because he can't break your land superiority, so do you really think his troops will be able to overwhelm you that easily? if you'd read the thread, i already mentioned that if your goliaths can shoot carriers, then ghost can lock them down.
I am confused, are you implying you should get the ghosts, after they have carriers, or do you get the premeptivly?
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is awesome32277 Posts
Of course when you scan his carrier tech.
What you just said is like saying in PvZ:
"He may go hard lurker contain so i should go reaver push on him and demolish his expo"
then mutalisks arrive at your base.
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as soon as you see gates, if you can hold your position while sacrificing tank production. if he surprises you, you dont have time for ghosts.
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On May 30 2005 15:57 Empyrean wrote:
Carriers are faster than ghosts. A single Ghost will prompt Carriers to run, while the other units (Zealot/Templar, Dragoon, etc.) will kill the Ghosts.
Simple as that.
Range of lockdown is barely less than the ghost's vision. Ghosts are faster than carriers. Carriers have to accelerate to get to full speed as well. If a ghost is anywhere near a carrier when you lockdown, that carrier is VERY unlikely to get away.
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On May 30 2005 14:03 GroT wrote:
oh yeah and they're slow
i'm sorry, but you just pulled this one out of your ass didn't you?
they're the exact same speed as the tank, and just a BIT behind the goliath. I just tested this, and the ghost came in about 3 seconds behind the goliath across a 128x128 map, tied with the tank, and beat the carrier by miles.
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Not viable. Every week we have a discussion on why ghosts fucking suck, use the search function.
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The thing about ghosts is that they are only good against the carriers, while gols can fight ground troops. If you make several ghosts, toss will just decide to harass some part of the map far away from them.
Unfortunately for you, you can't counter attack with your ghosts somewhere else. Also, if they stop carrier production and start pumping more goons + temp, you have completely worthless units.
I think it's best to just keep pumping gols, because with those you can raze expos, etc, and actually force the carriers to come to you.
edit: but I'm sure they are fun as hell to use.
edit2: now my post makes sense x_x
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ghosts require a great deal of micro for a small (even if powerful) effect. This is the same reason why queens aren't really used by zerg. Just too much micro for a unit that has very limited uses, even if theoretically they are very powerful.
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I've been here about a year, thanks. Just becuase i don't have tons of posts from debating why ghosts are good, doesn't mean i don't know what im talking about when i tell you that they are really bad.
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i agree ghost are underrated
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Yah, ghosts are totally underrated. In reality they just suck, where most of us think they suck HARD.
Seriously, 1 in a 100 tvp games a situation *might* come up where you could use them. It's been a long time since I saw a game that was won by ghosts where wraith/goli wouldn't have. How many have you seen? :p
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the point of ghosts tvp is not to make a lot and lockdown every carrier you see
12 is wayy too much, its not like vessel tvz or temp pvz
lets say your opponent decided to go carrier (im talking about 5+) now you can make 2-3 ghosts and invest the rest of your money on gols and upgrade
covert ops 50/50 lock 200/200 and lets say 3 ghost 75/225
thats a 325/475 investment that guarantee you at least 3 carrier kill .. at least 1500/750
the point is to lockdown a part of the carrier fleet so
1- they are less so they are weaker
2- if the flee, you got free kill
if you got 3 gas, go ahead but if you only have 2, just pump gols and upg, you want ghosts
sure it is very micro intensive, if you cannot use them, dont
if you think you can, dont abuse of them and good luck locking those annoying starship!
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...make love to your ghosts elsewhere thx
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Ugh...Ghosts are definitely NOT underrated. They are UNDERPOWERED and suck. The only viable use for them is in TvT, which, regardless of how balance changes affect ghosts, won't affect TvT balance at all.
Ghosts really suck because:
1. Their ground attack completely suck. They won't do a thing against goons/zeals.
2. Carriers, especially with obs, will see your ghosts coming and run away before your ghosts can do any damage.
3. Carriers will fly out destroying your base, your expansions, your critical buildings while your ghosts slowly chase the carriers by foot. By the time your ghosts get to lockdown range, the carriers will see it and fly away and go on another trip to take out one of your other expansions. Repeat this sentence until all your bases are destroyed.
4. Storm will annihilate ghosts. Bring a shuttle with high templars along with carriers if you see ghosts.
5. When P see you making ghosts, he will produce less carriers and alot more ground units. Your ghosts won't be able to handle any type of toss ground units at all. At least goliaths will be able to put up a fight. Ghosts won't.
6. Ghosts die way, WAY too quickly. Their hit points is way too low for them to be viable.
7. Even if you DO manage to lockdown, that doesn't mean that you successfully killed the carrier. You still have to run goliaths over to kill them. This means not only you need to invest in ghosts, you will also have to invest in goliaths / wraiths in addition to them as well, which is a huge investment.
8. Alot of times, your ghosts will get in the way of goliaths, making it even harder to aim for the carriers correctly. If you think microing goliaths vs carriers with tanks in the way is hard, wait until you micro goliaths vs carriers with tanks and ghosts in the way. Not only you have to take a huge amount of time to micro your ghosts to lockdown the carriers, you will also spend a joyful amount of time microing them out of the way of goliaths.
9. If P see you making ghosts, he will make high templars and hallucinate his carriers. This pretty much makes your ghosts almost useless as you try to lockdown hallucinated carriers and can't figure out which ones are the real ones you need to lockdown.
10. Ghosts take a huge amount of time before they can become anything viable in use. Ghosts require the highest tech tree. Ghosts require energy. They take a huge amount of time to build. And even after they are built, they still need to wait until 100 energy before they can start doing anything of use.
11. Ghosts take a huge amount of micro. Sure, it can be done, but goliaths are so much easier to micro. The time you take to micro ghosts, you can expand, macro more units / buildings, do so many other things that pretty much negates the value of ghosts.
Conclusion: Ghosts suck. I'd like to see balance change with ghosts to make them more viable in games.
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I know you're a great player, but it's obvious you haven't read most of the things i've had to say.
1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths.
2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts.
3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds.
4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough.
5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then.
6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force.
7.) you can lock down shuttles.
8.) 5-6 ghosts won't make it hard to micro goliaths against carriers *roll eyes*.
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I hate camoot with a passion as a human being and as a player, but what he mentioned was something that I was thinking about for a while - at the highest level Terran wouldn't even use siege tank - Ghost and Vulture would be sufficient vs Protoss, but I digress.
With regards to this, Ghost is only a good counter and viable (with regards to human capabilities) vs Carriers, in which they will be truly cost efficient. At this point, since upgrades seem to be so important to all of you, you should already have a science facility (which is bullshit, nobody will have a sci facility), which means that if you are going for 2/2, you can pay 50/50 for a damned Covert Ops and Ghosts. Gas is a huge factor, which is very true, but if you are slow pushing (which is the only way he can go carriers) you will ideally have 3+ gas nodes if you start taking map control.
All in all, it's definitely not a bad idea and should definitely be considered more than initially flamed, especially by people like Empyrean and Cygnus  . Also, Ghost isn't a bad fighter vs Zealot, although ideally it shouldn't come down to that XD.
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On May 31 2005 01:12 camooT wrote:
I know you're a great player, but it's obvious you haven't read most of the things i've had to say.
1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths.
2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts.
3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds.
4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough.
5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then.
6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force.
7.) you can lock down shuttles.
8.) 5-6 ghosts won't make it hard to micro goliaths against carriers *roll eyes*.
im sure everyone will see the true value of ghosts when you demonstrate how they can be used by people at low, medium and high levels:D;) why not post a replay of yourself using ghosts if they are so easy to use / cost effective?
EDIT:
On May 31 2005 01:58 exalted wrote:
Ghost isn't a bad fighter vs Zealot, although ideally it shouldn't come down to that XD.
OMGOMGOMG NO!!!! p;)
ghosts suck so much balls vs everything its insane, the 1-10 ghosts your going to have wont do shit vs ANYTHING in an actual fight (i.e: the cant be used for non-magic purposes)
sorry but i just had to vent dsome frustration as as i cant fit my penis into my pants as it is too enourmous
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Camoot i appreciate your zeal for the use of ghosts , and the wish to get lesser used units used more.But they are used less for a reason , there are other more effective options....
In other words , Ghost is to T what Queen is to Z , except queen is better :p
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camoot, first try this in a real game, then you will see why they arent usefull.
it takes way too long too get them.
the gas and micro is just better spend elsewhere.
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On May 31 2005 01:58 exalted wrote:
I hate camoot with a passion as a human being and as a player
i don't understand you worth a dick. do you just pick grudges with everyone that comes by?
unlike most theorycrafters, i don't make posts like this before i've tried it at least once. here are two reps where i went ghosts. the first one, i locked down 6 carriers (didn't use hotkeys even, because there were so few), which essentially turned the tide of the game. the second one, my opponent doesn't go carriers when i get ghosts (he didn't see them, i had them hidden for a while until i made sure he wouldnt get ghosts), but if he had (and most P players would have), i would've locked them down immediately, and the game would be mine in moments. both games i won, but only in the first one did ghosts turn the tide. i think the potential for that was there in the 2nd game.
i'm not very good, but neither are my opponents. proof of concept.
http://s26.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0VMZ91BPGF2JE2FRE9RY89BITX
http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2HP7TKLG100PF3GRSYFY1IVUBW
he's right though. ghosts suck balls against zeals, given the gas cost.
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The thing is camoot if you macroed better and played better, Protoss wouldn't even be able to go carriers ala Grot's advice [which is carriers are bad and Terrans will not give Protoss an opportunity to get them, and if they have to let the Protoss get them they would lose to anything else anyway] (which is 99% accurate and true).
I would worry less about the power of ghosts and improving your micro/macro at that. If I play you PvT and I go Carriers and you lock them down, that'd be irrelevant becuase you'd already have 500000000 zeals and goons destroying you at the same time.
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On May 31 2005 02:59 exalted wrote:
The thing is camoot if you macroed better and played better, Protoss wouldn't even be able to go carriers ala Grot's advice [which is carriers are bad and Terrans will not give Protoss an opportunity to get them, and if they have to let the Protoss get them they would lose to anything else anyway] (which is 99% accurate and true).
please come back to the real world. we are talking about a game where the protoss DOES go carriers, and you spot them before they've begun production.
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On May 31 2005 03:01 camooT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2005 02:59 exalted wrote:
The thing is camoot if you macroed better and played better, Protoss wouldn't even be able to go carriers ala Grot's advice [which is carriers are bad and Terrans will not give Protoss an opportunity to get them, and if they have to let the Protoss get them they would lose to anything else anyway] (which is 99% accurate and true). please come back to the real world. we are talking about a game where the protoss DOES go carriers, and you spot them before they've begun production.
Do you have problems reading?
Not to derail this thread - I did some personal testing - the Ghost AI is not flawless (say, like, Hydra AI) and sometimes acts like Reaver with regards to Lockdown - which is a huge 200/200 for the upgrade (I thought it was 100/100 or something cheaper). I think Ghost's are only useful with a Terran slowpush and a Protoss doing this as a counter - but Tfeigns comments about hallucination as well as the fact that you are decreasing tank count, upgrades, and the fact that Carriers can be used for harass (instead of Ghosts which are only a defensive measure) have made me rethink my position on this.
The huge risk reward is far greater than a queen however - and I feel queens are definitely underused, with regards to parasite, ensnare, and even infesting a Command Center - the ability to lockdown 6 carriers is a huge amount given the small relative price of a ghost with regards to the price of the cars themselves.
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the ability to lockdown 6 carriers is a huge amount given the small relative price of a ghost with regards to the price of the cars themselves.
you will already have a sci fac., + 200/200 lockdown (cloaking isn't neccessary because they'll have obs anyway) + 50/50 covert ops, + 25/75 x12. 550 min / 1150. those 12 ghosts only have to take out 5 carriers to make them worth it (250 x 5 = 1250 gas). normally, they will take out at least 6-7, + arbs + shuttles or what not, even goons if you have good enough micro (done it), if you know how to micro them. you will be able to build fewer goliaths and transfer back to vults faster, thus you'll have plenty of gas to get upgrades.
(you can actually take off about 300 gas because you only need 8, not 12 ghosts)
referring to your post earlier, i meant that you are talking about how to prevent toss from getting carriers, when the thread is about a situation where you're sure toss is already going air.
tfeign is right on with the hallucination, i think. that's a perfect counter for lockdown, but very few players will do that. not to mention the fact that ghosts can surprise the toss player easily, and that you'll probably get his carriers before he has time to research hallucinate/get temps/wait 100 ticks for energy.
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Norway28706 Posts
yes ghosts are awesome and there's no denying that. the main reason why they're not built is simply the inconvenience of building a covert ops, (if there is even a science facility present in the first place) and the fact that normally your barrack is floating around somewhere.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 30 2005 13:21 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I tried to go Ghosts against a Carrier toss and it failed miserably. If they have Observers or any forward units, they will see your Ghosts coming and flee, usually taking out another one of your bases in the process. Carriers are faster than Ghosts. Ghosts are great against BCs though.
You should scan like a whore anyways, gols will see the obs :O
+ Ghosts = P is way restricted in how and where he can attack
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On May 31 2005 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
yes ghosts are awesome and there's no denying that. the main reason why they're not built is simply the inconvenience of building a covert ops, (if there is even a science facility present in the first place) and the fact that normally your barrack is floating around somewhere.
sarcasm? can't tell :\.
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Sweden33719 Posts
No, I think drone likes ghosts
Also, carriers are not bad exalted -_- And there are plenty of situations where they are the superior choice, AND (sorry grot ;o) with the correct timing, terran won't always be able to stop P from getting them.
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Before I started just copying the more effective builds of pro replays, I used to get ghosts mid game and bring them when I cliff a protoss who just expanded to their natural (assuming LT). When the one or two dropships show up, I would lockdown before they unload. This guaranteed ownage of the expo. I've been trying to think of more practical applications for ghosts TvP. What about when you push late game, bringing ghosts to lockdown zealot bombs? Do you think ghosts are too slow for this?
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Sweden33719 Posts
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Norway28706 Posts
adding ghosts with your drops is fucking awesome as hell if you keep them hotkeyed and you are the kind of person who constantly watches the minimap
shutting down an expansion with 4 ghosts and 1 tank is a million times more satisfactory than shutting it down with goliaths+tanks.
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i wonder why ive only seen boxer use them if they are so good..
PS:ghosts rock!
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Norway28706 Posts
because boxer is the only pro terran who thinks during the game.
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Norway28706 Posts
okay then
the other terrans try to think but fail at thinking
I mean of course there are situations where ghosts are not viable/necessary, like if you're incredibly low on gas, although countering a good amount of carriers is kinda impossible then..
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drone what do you mean by inconvenience of building a covert ops?
On May 31 2005 03:46 FrozenArbiter wrote:No, I think drone likes ghosts Also, carriers are not bad exalted -_- And there are plenty of situations where they are the superior choice, AND (sorry grot ;o) with the correct timing, terran won't always be able to stop P from getting them.
that's reasonable <3 frozenarbiter
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Norway28706 Posts
I mean that it's not something people are accustomed to doing, and most people who have played thousands of games find it hard to stray away from their normal way of playing.
it took me lots of games (30+) where I had to force myself to use queens before they became a natural part of my game.. ghosts I'm not accustomed to building in "normal" games so I don't build them as often as I should, even if my opponent is going carrier or arbiter. however if I started forcing myself to tech all the way to ghosts in every game regardless of what my opponent was doing then it would be completely natural for me to do so against carrier/arb as well.
bw is for most players with thousands of games a very automatic thing.
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I think it's all about the simple "pay for something you'll only get in x minutes" thing again.. also if you say "i only need 8 ghosts" the lockdown cost and new barracks cost is really big in relevance to the 8 units that are going to get it
it can be said that some players would accumulate ridiculous amounts of gas during a tvp game and never really use it, but most players like tanks and have all their gas spent
a common scenario for a tank happy player I think is that they are mining from 2 bases during mid game, expand to two mineral only bases because his slowpush passed those expansions by and made them safe, and suddenly drops in gas very very hard and has nothing left
maybe a vulture happy player could conceivably make some kind of use of ghosts, I personally find it pretty unlikely, especially with the huge amount of time it takes after you started production before they become useful, that's really the biggest drawback, the price is actually reasonable
for example drone when you talk about getting an expansion down with a ghost making lockdowns, that's more expensive, WAY harder (i'd seriously miss the shuttle on the minimap when I still played) and less effective than simply putting goliaths up in the first place
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Storm rips the hell out of terran infantery anyhow, no joke
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 31 2005 06:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mean that it's not something people are accustomed to doing, and most people who have played thousands of games find it hard to stray away from their normal way of playing.
it took me lots of games (30+) where I had to force myself to use queens before they became a natural part of my game.. ghosts I'm not accustomed to building in "normal" games so I don't build them as often as I should, even if my opponent is going carrier or arbiter. however if I started forcing myself to tech all the way to ghosts in every game regardless of what my opponent was doing then it would be completely natural for me to do so against carrier/arb as well.
bw is for most players with thousands of games a very automatic thing.
Very true I've been trying to force myself to use Dark archons but then whenever I get into a game I resort to the normal way of playing as soon as I'm put under pressure!
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yeah lots of people using queens for the first time lose them to a bunch of m&m trying to ensnare them, hehe
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On May 31 2005 07:46 GroT wrote:yeah lots of people using queens for the first time lose them to a bunch of m&m trying to ensnare them, hehe
MAKE THE MEMORIES STOP!
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Norway28706 Posts
the cost isn't an issue at all when fighting against carriers. not getting ghosts because of the resource investment is ridiculous as hell, 4 ghosts with lockdown is more useful than an extra 10 goliaths if you're fighting against 8+ carriers. (and if you have a science facility, which you should have, that's only 50 gas more than 10 goliaths and 750 minerals less, which you could use on 10 turrets if you want to. )
time investment, meh, you should ideally start teching for ghosts the instant you see any signs of carriers. (be it a working cybernetics or starports or the carriers themselves. )
personally I've had GREAT success with dropping 4 ghosts + 1 tank vs expansions.. normally I'm capable of telling when the protoss is likely to drop units anyway, so I focus on the ghosts right when it's about to happen. or you can drop 2 ghosts 2 scvs 1 tank, start building turrets asap thus forcing him to drop while you're still paying attention to it..
the main reason why people don't build ghosts is not that they're not worth it, it's that they're not accustomed to building them. that goes for me as well, although I do build them, just not as much as I should.
and what you say about vulture users being more likely to benefit from them, that's true. I rarely have more than 3 machine shops even if I have 3 gas expansions going.
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the thinking terran goes m&m vs carriers, fuck ghosts
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I know you're a great player, but it's obvious you haven't read most of the things i've had to say.
I read the entire thread before I made my post.
1.) Ghosts can kill several times their value. They also allow you to build FEWER goliaths.
The micro required to use them, the resources in which you have to invest, and the time in which you must put into them before they become of any use, and the risks involved as I've explained altogether is not worth the tradeoff.
2.) You don't need more then 8 ghosts.
That's 8 less goliaths missing from your army and a whole lot more micro to manage. Protoss WILL switch to more ground if he sees you making ghosts, which you will be easily overrun when he has a large ground army.
3.) Microing ghosts, if you know how to do it, should take less than 3-4 seconds.
3-4 seconds more of your time than goliaths for each ghost add up alot. Every second counts. 3-4 seconds is enough time for you to pump units out of 8 factories, expand, etc. Again, the tradeoffs as I've explained is just not worth it.
4.) Carriers can't run forever. That and, they're much slower than ghosts, so if a ghost is just out of carrier vision and locks down, the carrier can't get away fast enough.
Carriers are not much slower than ghosts. They're almost the same speed. The only thing is...carriers can fly. Ghosts can't. Carriers will fly around and harass you to death and limit your resources as your ghosts chase them on foot. They can easily fly away if your ghosts get near and start an attack elsewhere.
5.) hallucination is a long shot, and templars will cost toss a lot of gas, not to mention the long time he'll have to wait for hallucination. he'll spend as much on templars as you've spent on ghosts, and hallucinations only last so long. still, it's viable, especially if he's got several temps already. i wouldn't go ghosts against a toss who goes templars, then.
When toss goes carriers late game, it's pretty much a must that he has a great amount of resources. He WILL have enough for templars, no doubt about it at all. Most toss gets templars in addition to carriers anyway, regardless if you go ghosts or not. If the toss is any decent, he will research hallucinations if he see you go ghosts. I get hallucinations for my carriers anyway regardless if I see ghosts or not. Even with just 3 templars can get you 6 more carriers. They work wonders against goliaths. I just can't imagine how ghosts can stand any chance at all against hallucinated carriers. Also remember that ghosts pretty much carry a "plz storm me" sign with them vs templars.
6.) you're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. if you do it correctly, you'll be able to come out on top in mass, and won't have to worry about his ground force.
EXACTLY. You're not supposed to use ghosts as fighting units. That's why if P see you making ghosts, he will switch over to ground forces and will overrun you. Goliaths can be used as anti air as well as fighing units. Ghosts can't. If you go goliaths, even if P switches over to ground, you will still be able to stand a good chance. If you go ghosts, if P switches over to ground, you stand much less of a chance. Templar hallucinations + storms + bigger ground army&less carriers will make waste to your ghosts strat.
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OMG I've got 5 ghosts so that means 10 carriers locked down ! OMGOMGOMG! Then you can nuke and killallthestuffanddestroyallandhecantkillmesinceimcloakedand2nukekillallandblablabla
Play a decent TvP on a map like, say, LT where the protoss goes carrier. See if everything goes like you imagined it, if the game even goes that far.
Boy, the theorycraft is killing me. We are no koreans with 8 hands and an IQ of 180 BTW, so you can't always say "BUT KOREANS USE IT". Hey, I might as well say that the protoss just get dark archons and feedback the ghosts !
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Sometimes I wonder if certain MSG board users played the game or simply read the instruction booklet.
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tfeign, you are my hero ;-)
Some people fail to see that a 10% chance of winning 100$ in a lottery is a lot better than a 1% chance to win 500$....
And you didn't even mention feedback, which is a real bitch on sucky little spellcasters like queens or ghosts ^^
Toss carrier cliff abuse will make it EXTREMLY hard to get in even one successfull lock. It gets even harder, the bigger the map.
Locking an interceptor is a really great way to waste 5 seconds of your valuable time and get almost mad.
Finally succeeding "teh gosu" and locking a carrier over cliff/water and not being able to kill it with goliath can drive saner persons than camooT into madness ;-)
Not to mention Storm + Feedback can completely destroy your wannabe "counter" to carriers. To sum it up: It doesn't work. Once you are in a position where it would work, a tiny, 1 minute change in toss army composition will make it not work again. So either you lose or you lose.
Ghosts suck in TvP... almost as hard as vs Zerg. Only vs Terran BC users do I see the validity of ghosts in competitive play.
Edit: Five pages of this thread, and just when I post it, 2 posts above me someone mentions feedback :/
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I don't think using ghosts to lockdown carriers is quite as unfeasible as people make out, seeing how often terran's manage to find the resources and micro to use wraiths, but there's some things no one's mentioned.
1: The toss will almost always have observers with their carriers (I know I do), as they want to be ok vs wraiths. So you really won't have much room for error.
2: Even if you lock a carrier down, it doesn't mean it's dead. It will either be attacking from over a cliff (and so possibly out of reach of a lot of stuff, especially as lockdowned units kinda drift a little just after being hit), or attacking along with the protoss ground army, meaning you'd still have to win the battle to get the 'free kill'.
As people have said, ghosts are much better for gaying up cliffs. It is ridiculously demoralising to get a shuttle locked down and hence lose your expansion; makes you feel like you're not in the same league as you're opponent.
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i could def say ghosts could be improved in several ways without having any noticable impact on the game. this is the #1 way to tell a unit is underpowered.
u could decrease their build time
u could decrease their gas cost
u could decrease the cost of their ability upgrades
u could even decrease the energy cost (slightly) of everything they do
u could even increase their dmg
and their hp
and they still wouldn't break the game.
therefore, ghost are at least slightly underpowered. q.e.d.
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On May 31 2005 09:35 TserHossHiBreed wrote:
OMG I've got 5 ghosts so that means 10 carriers locked down ! OMGOMGOMG! Then you can nuke and killallthestuffanddestroyallandhecantkillmesinceimcloakedand2nukekillallandblablabla
Play a decent TvP on a map like, say, LT where the protoss goes carrier. See if everything goes like you imagined it, if the game even goes that far.
Boy, the theorycraft is killing me. We are no koreans with 8 hands and an IQ of 180 BTW, so you can't always say "BUT KOREANS USE IT". Hey, I might as well say that the protoss just get dark archons and feedback the ghosts !
omg loser feedback is teh pwn!
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When a carrier is locked down, it's removed from any unit grouping it was associated with, and isn't put back in after the effects of lockdown wear off. So it's yet another annoying thing that the Protoss will have to look after.
I don't think professionals have given ghosts the attention they deserve against carriers. I think once they do, it's quite probable that they'll become something of a standard.
Just like what happened with defilers?
I still think queens SUCK though.
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can someone find us a game in the last 2 seasons (of any league) where a guy lost to carriers that possibly could have had a better chance had he went ghosts?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 31 2005 23:10 Chris307 wrote:
When a carrier is locked down, it's removed from any unit grouping it was associated with, and isn't put back in after the effects of lockdown wear off. So it's yet another annoying thing that the Protoss will have to look after.
I don't think professionals have given ghosts the attention they deserve against carriers. I think once they do, it's quite probable that they'll become something of a standard.
Just like what happened with defilers?
I still think queens SUCK though.
I think that it works the same as when you put units of a group in a shuttle - if you click on their group number while they are in there and other parts of the group are not, when they emerge, they will no longer be part of it.
Whereas if you don't click until you've let them out, they'll still be in it.
I think so at least, no one ever locks my shit down (not for the past 2 years probably--v)
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Norway28706 Posts
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
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YOU CAN RECALL LOCKED CARRIERS INTO YOUR OWN BASE SAFETY MAKING LOCK NOT A SYNONYM OF KILL OKAY ?
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omg loser feedback is teh pwn!
Haha
And holorin, recall is not always at your simple disposal, and anyhow killing a locked carrier remains a problem because when your 8 ghosts died while locking 2-3 carriers there's still other carriers and the big P army anyway.
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Ghosts are useful on a map like.... paranoid android, I think. Because T can play very safely and hold the bridges while taking his half of the map. It doesn't really hurt as much to let P expand since you can pretty much have equal bases soon enough yourself. Once you're rich in gas, a few ghosts really help vs the arb/carrier tech that P is forced to use (since the bridges really hamper ground combat vs superior positioned T troops).
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On June 01 2005 06:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
i guess i couldn't believe that either until i saw ur zvt rep where u Infest his CC after a huge muta attack
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On June 01 2005 06:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
wtf chris you're a fucking RETARDED MONKEY ASSHOMO
queens are awesome and progamers are using them often how can you deny their greatness wtf no sane person possibly could deny the greatness that is the queen what the fuck oh my god the world is collapsing I thought there was hope for you and then you go and disappoint me in a way like this how could you I was prepared to father your children and now no way siree this is just flat out wrong in every way imaginable you made me cry you evil evil evil evil man
queens are actually wayway better than ghosts are, ghosts are honestly rarely worth getting (BUT they are worth getting in most situations where you are fighting against carriers.) queens are almost always worth getting.
Queens SUCK
Complete waste of gas that could've otherwise been used on a much better tech unit: DEFILERS
I WILL GO DOWN WITH THIS SHIP IF I HAVE TO
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On June 01 2005 09:29 Holorin wrote:
YOU CAN RECALL LOCKED CARRIERS INTO YOUR OWN BASE SAFETY MAKING LOCK NOT A SYNONYM OF KILL OKAY ?
lol
recall + carriers = 1 game on 5000
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On June 01 2005 12:38 SainT wrote:i guess i couldn't believe that either until i saw ur zvt rep where u Infest his CC after a huge muta attack
Yeah, I can't believe this replay wasn't posted more widely all over the net. It was the single replay in a year or so that really had a : "Wow, a new strategy with underused units, that actually works" effect on me :D
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On June 01 2005 15:52 baba1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2005 09:29 Holorin wrote:
YOU CAN RECALL LOCKED CARRIERS INTO YOUR OWN BASE SAFETY MAKING LOCK NOT A SYNONYM OF KILL OKAY ? lol recall + carriers = 1 game on 5000
I mean when it comes to sucky strats ... I recommend ghosts versus archons too ...
and a one on one fight with a dark archon too ... :-)
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when it comes to good advice ... I recommend you stop pressing the post button ...
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Sorry :-> can't help being sarcastic, anyway ghost might be nice touch but hardly something you can rely on I belive that's why they are underused.
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Why dont you research EMP and even +50 more mana, and get some vessels? they are more usefull if you want to support your gols, dmatrix comes for free and the protoss usually regroup their carriers so you can EMP them all with one shot
2 drop (4 tanks) + EMP = nexus goes bye bye very fast
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You guys act like 1 ghost costs 500 gas. Guess what people all said about defilers before every zerg in the world defiler rushed?
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maybe new terran late game = vults + goliath + lock down everything not zealot
i dont think you need to hotkey every ghost just because boxer did it that way that game, you should be able micro them like having a group of vessals irradiate lots of stuff in tvz
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Why dont you research EMP and even +50 more mana, and get some vessels? they are more usefull if you want to support your gols, dmatrix comes for free and the protoss usually regroup their carriers so you can EMP them all with one shot
Nah, medics + optical flare is better support.
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On June 03 2005 14:34 B.GoD_AnGRY wrote:
Why dont you research EMP and even +50 more mana, and get some vessels? they are more usefull if you want to support your gols, dmatrix comes for free and the protoss usually regroup their carriers so you can EMP them all with one shot
2 drop (4 tanks) + EMP = nexus goes bye bye very fast
BUT if Vessel AND Ghost, then Nexus gone fast too.
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Norway28706 Posts
On June 03 2005 15:32 poor newb wrote:
maybe new terran late game = vults + goliath + lock down everything not zealot
i dont think you need to hotkey every ghost just because boxer did it that way that game, you should be able micro them like having a group of vessals irradiate lots of stuff in tvz
in theory vulture/ghost beats anything protoss.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Cannon push + storm :D:D:D:D
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Norway28706 Posts
vults > templar
nuke > cannon
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On June 06 2005 10:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2005 15:32 poor newb wrote:
maybe new terran late game = vults + goliath + lock down everything not zealot
i dont think you need to hotkey every ghost just because boxer did it that way that game, you should be able micro them like having a group of vessals irradiate lots of stuff in tvz in theory vulture/ghost beats anything protoss.
you kinda need something to shoot down carriers with other than ghosts, maybe you can build turrets under them 
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Norway28706 Posts
if there are many carriers you can nuke them if there's only 1 carrier per 5 ghosts then you will kill them in time.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 06 2005 10:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:vults > templar nuke > cannon
Vults wont > templar behind cannons because their range = too short D:!
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nope it was chungsang, recheck sclegacy
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Chungsang = Zodiac_JoyPop
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Hmm ghosts kick ass if you use them heaps. I should really use them more against bc and car.
skyglow1
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17015 Posts
On June 07 2005 23:49 skyglow1 wrote:
Hmm ghosts kick ass if you use them heaps. I should really use them more against bc and car.
skyglow1
Or, in a TvT, you could spend the money on a useful unit. Dunno, though, seems pretty unfounded to me. I mean, what possibly could be more useful in a TvT than a Ghost!
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17015 Posts
Against a BC. That's what I meant.
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And while you're too busy microing your ghosts, the toss's ground troops will run you over.
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tvt ghosts abolutely pwn bc's and drops. 6 dship drop coming .. OH NO! 4 dship locked OH YEAH!
having 2-4 ghost at sum keypoints is really great with good minimap use
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i just dont bother with ghosts.... unless its vs a noob and i wanna do something funny
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Catyoul
France2377 Posts
Hehe, look at game 2 iG.Sarens vs ToT)Suker( in the nationwar France vs Spain this weekend. It was on Gaia, Sarens was holding the center firmly and Suker went 4-5 stargates carriers (they both held about half of the map). Late game, Sarens made about 8-10 ghosts with lockdown (+nuke, for the fun factor i guess :p). I don't think Suker had seen them coming since they appeared suddenly coming from a dropship (though Sarens had also used nuke in game 1, so he could have guessed he liked ghosts).
Ok, Sarens has 250+ apm so speed isn't a problem and the game already looked strongly in his hands. He could have made more goliaths instead of the ghosts, but the ghosts were pretty sure to win him the game so it seems like a good choice.
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here it comes : "a nuke is cheaper than a carrier"
if he's into carriers ... you can use a nuke per carrier and it will be worth it ...
carriers are expensive imo ...
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On June 13 2005 11:57 Holorin wrote:
here it comes : "a nuke is cheaper than a carrier"
if he's into carriers ... you can use a nuke per carrier and it will be worth it ...
carriers are expensive imo ...
and a goliath missile is even cheaper than a nuke, you can buy the goliath missiles at the price of 0 minerals and no gas and it's even more worth it ;-)
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Ghost and Medics? :D G&M rush gogogo
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since i play sc vanilla mpstly i really havnt much choice but to use ghosts with like 6-7 observers the wraiths are useless, and no gol range. but you definitely learn to lockdown good
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the problem is that teching for ghost (researching their abilities )takes time.u cant attack in the meantime.terran is most vunerable in the early game.for example u have to go tanks and vultures against protoss.build tank fast coz of the harass of goons.
if u have good defense and u start teching for ghost,ur enemy will just take the whole map.mass units!
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On June 13 2005 09:34 Catyoul wrote:Hehe, look at game 2 iG.Sarens vs ToT)Suker( in the nationwar France vs Spain this weekend. It was on Gaia, Sarens was holding the center firmly and Suker went 4-5 stargates carriers (they both held about half of the map). Late game, Sarens made about 8-10 ghosts with lockdown (+nuke, for the fun factor i guess :p). I don't think Suker had seen them coming since they appeared suddenly coming from a dropship (though Sarens had also used nuke in game 1, so he could have guessed he liked ghosts). Ok, Sarens has 250+ apm so speed isn't a problem and the game already looked strongly in his hands. He could have made more goliaths instead of the ghosts, but the ghosts were pretty sure to win him the game so it seems like a good choice.
dude i can't download the replay, i dont' know for some reason i can never get on or download from wgtour....can anyone help me???
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Catyoul
France2377 Posts
On June 14 2005 22:58 dsh wrote:
dude i can't download the replay, i dont' know for some reason i can never get on or download from wgtour....can anyone help me???
I think many people have the same problem as you, don't know why though. Try to use a proxy to access wgtour maybe.
For the replay, I've mirrored it here if you want : http://brood.catyoul.org/sarens vs suker gaia.rep
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And it's that too you need goliaths too if you go ghosts, ghosts can't kill carriers(well, yes, but it'll take hell of a lot time) and that Lockdown won't affect very long.
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that game with sarens vs suker was beautifully played, very nice game
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On June 14 2005 15:40 kaiblume wrote:
the problem is that teching for ghost (researching their abilities )takes time.u cant attack in the meantime.terran is most vunerable in the early game.for example u have to go tanks and vultures against protoss.build tank fast coz of the harass of goons.
if u have good defense and u start teching for ghost,ur enemy will just take the whole map.mass units!
it's not a ghost rush, just tech slowly through the game while you fight with vult + tanks, and you only need lockdown for skills
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On May 30 2005 13:19 iNsaNe- wrote:I had somewhere a replay, TvT, what was an awesome game. Anyway other T made BCs, and was expoing to 12 on LT. Other had Wraiths + Ghost, dropshipped ghosts to there, lockdowned all about 8-10 BC:s and Wraiths killed all. It was pure art
that was boxer
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On June 06 2005 15:11 FrozenArbiter wrote:Vults wont > templar behind cannons because their range = too short D:!
ghosts in bunker > cannon range :D
why was this revived
o wtf
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On March 22 2006 21:44 radar14 wrote:
well he probably didn't notice it was a month old thread. And he did contribute by pointing out it was boxer. So leave him alone ^_^
To the person who bumped this thread:
It will generally be undersirable to revive an ancient thread from that god forsaken place, you put your head in danger of a ban if you keep bumping old threads[which annoys people].
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EPT
