EPTEdit: One hundred and fifty five million seven hundred and eighty five thousand three hundred thirty four times.
The Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 5
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
Edit: One hundred and fifty five million seven hundred and eighty five thousand three hundred thirty four times. | ||
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Majk
Sweden146 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:11 deathly rat wrote: Starcraft 2 is designed so that each race is different on a fundamental level. It is one of the things that make the game interesting to play, however as long as they are different discussions such as this will always be possible. The meta-game is still swinging violently so that its difficult to see what the situation will be in the next month, never mind what the effect of balance changes will be. The other thing is that your point is that P need a defensive buff, but P often turtle better than any other race and come out with a game ending deathball. This is in contradiction to the buff you want to implement. Also, Protoss early game circle around either you go for early timing (all-in) or you macro. Terran and Zerg have a stronger early game without being all-in (at least in my opinion) wich leads to if you decide to play a macro game as Protoss you are stuck being defensive and with little map control... Most Protoss learn to either camp untill they have a clear timing, or go for an early attack... All this leads up to most protoss play their games defensive until they have an army worthy moving out on the map with... If you play most of your games defensive, you will get good at defending. | ||
ki11z0ne
United States427 Posts
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Kaelaris
United Kingdom788 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:26 VPVash wrote: you all play toss i see Actually I play random predominantly. It's quite noticeable in this thread that people are having proper discussions with formulated opinions and in a nice manner. Don't come in here and taint actual well constructed banter with your narrow-minded one liners. | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:39 syriuszonito wrote: Interesting read, however i dont quite get what is the point of this article. Do you just want shield battery to be introduced in expansion or you claim that protoss is underpowered? Forcefields are such a good defensive tool that i cant see a reason to buff warpgate units. Protoss would make more Motherships if we had shield battery. Archons would be stronger as well. And FF is pretty easy to deal with in the midgame for both Terran and Protoss. I don't think his post was particularly one-sided; but analytical, then he purposed an idea and a small change. Pretty Good Op, though I don't agree to all his conclusions. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
I've also repeatedly explained to people I would fix the current warp gate problems: Increase the amount of time it takes to WARP in a Warpgate - changing from gate -> WG. From there, you decrease the amount of time each unit takes to make from regular gates (Excluding zealots, for obvious reasons - Stalker timings are already the same regardless - if a zerg is not greedy they will have a spine crawler in time.) Therefore, like terran, protoss can resume unit production in a qued status, the only race which cannot do this to any extent with regular t1-1.5 units is protoss. This would also then allow WG to be used more strategically as when you want to be offensive, you then switch over to WG and use a proxy pylon instead if this always being the case like it is now - it's too free formed. This solution of decreasing unit build time in regular gateways also promotes better multi tasking for protoss players as they can macro/micro at the same time without always having to look at their base, which in my opinion is a major flaw of the race. Arguably the same for zerg, however hatchery do have regular larvae regen, so at least they don't have to do this as seriously. It also allows for a defensive protoss player to crank units out of regular gateways, while the other protoss warpgate rushing can still pressure, but in total misses one round of units because of the gate->WG conversion and therefore it balances out incredibly heavy aggression. And finally, it allows for protoss to have more utility. There are too many builds as protoss where if you, like zerg, do something slightly wrong(against 1-1-1 for example) you just simply lose(I'm not saying it's imba, I'm saying it's hard to defend, there is a difference.) This has always been my solution to Warpgate and I don't see in any way how it wouldn't improve protoss mechanics. It makes the race require more constant production rather than always relying on some sort of aggression, and also allows for a (in my eyes) good fix to PvP dynamics even disregarding the latest patch notes. Yes, I know there are other timings that reducing the normal gateway timings would then present, however, it encourages a longer game to get to this point - and more time for other builds to come into play instead of everything being purely aggressive like how this game is built right now, which is what separates BW and SC2 in my eyes. There needs to be certain timings still in the game for aggression, but at the same time it can't all revolve around it. There needs to be skill boundaries between players rather than it sometimes being build boundaries. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Oh and you got the definition of a timing push wrong. It's not " Usually sacrificing economy for a stronger army at a certain point in time" it's "timing your push to line up right when an advantage swings in your favor, like a +1 or Stim". | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:39 syriuszonito wrote: Interesting read, however i dont quite get what is the point of this article. Do you just want shield battery to be introduced in expansion or you claim that protoss is underpowered? Forcefields are such a good defensive tool that i cant see a reason to buff warpgate units. In terms of units? I would already prove that Protoss gateway units are underpowered without micro. But the interesting article does provide a point into probably why Protoss units are so bad (and it's just to balance warp in mechanics) | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
On September 08 2011 19:24 BearStorm wrote: The shield battery could actually revolutionize PvP. Did Blizzard ever comment on why it never made it into SC2? If not It was probably removed because they were rarely used, but PvP could probably have FE builds if the shield battery was in the game. This. I think Protoss needs this. A shield battery that costs only minerals and is powered by nexus energy. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
It is sad for the protoss players around us. The truly mechanical players get punished for the race while the weak players ride on the strengths of timing pushes. I've always imagined Protoss as a broken race, not balance wise but design wise. And it breaks my heart that they can't do multi pronged attacks or small pokes at an enemy without getting swamped. The biggest appearance of the design flaw is PvP, where it still hasn't breached past the one base phase. I thank you for this post. And as a Master zerg player I can see that I fully agree with it. Protoss just can't be balanced well if offense and defence is so much intwined. Because nerfing one will nerf the other and vice versa. It is sad, but I truly hope that Blizzard revamps the warp gate mechanic with gateways. And give warp gates a trade off when compared to gateways. I don't think this is feasable in a patch however, only in HotS could such an enormous feat be implemented since the metagame then will be slightly in shambles allowing protoss to relearn timings more easily. | ||
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NuclearStar
United Kingdom57 Posts
Maybe it should be an upgrade on the cycore or twilight council to warp in on pylons, and have them standard warp in around gates, but then that would just mean protoss can make an offensive proxy pylon+gate instead. I like the idea of a defensive structure after a gateway for protoss, but then what is stopping that getting abused and used as an offensive structure in their timing pushes? The issues are basically the way the protoss mechanics are done. I am sure if there was a different field around a nexus where only defensive structures can be placed might be ok. However if they were to introduce these, then cannons should have a small shield or damage nerf as any drops or runbys would be much weaker as a result of a new protoss defensive structure. The majority of the community would argue that sentries provide that early game defence, because you cant just put spines everywhere, nor can you put bunkers everywhere, not all bunkers or spines would be in range of the protoss army, depending on where they are attacking from. So the idea of FF is to split the aggressive army in half, while your superior army kills off the trapped units, the rest of the offensive army will have to walk around the FF or wait. But in the end, anything new you give to protoss to help in defence is definatly going to be used to boost their offensive abilities. I dont know why protoss are seen as weak right now, I know the results of tournies seem to suggest they are weak and terran is imba or whatever, but I still get rolled by protoss on ladder half the time. If they make changes to help high level protoss then they have to be certain that those changes are not going to make lower level protoss way more imba, as this will put terran and zerg players off the game if they are losing all the time at lower levels to P | ||
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Everhate
United States640 Posts
From a personal standpoint, I'd prefer reaver over colossus, as it seems like it would be so much better defensively. Adding in the shield battery is an interesting solution, and could potentially make for very interesting plays. I think they may be concerned about immortal or blink stalker + battery combination, but as quickly as shields come back (relative to bw), it may not be that huge a concern. Another possible approach would be to have protoss units warp in without shields...though my brain hurts thinking of all the possible alterations that could make both offensively and defensively, heh. | ||
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VPVash
United States139 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:33 CSN_Kaelaris wrote: Actually I play random predominantly. It's quite noticeable in this thread that people are having proper discussions with formulated opinions and in a nice manner. Don't come in here and taint actual well constructed banter with your narrow-minded one liners. I don't know what protoss players are complaining about. go watch huk and mc then you win ez pz User was banned for this post. | ||
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BottleSafti
Germany2 Posts
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Delay559
France89 Posts
On September 08 2011 19:13 RodYan wrote: The solution is: -Make Gateways start with warpgate -Gateways now have a warp in radius for the early game. Pylons cannot be used to warp in at this point. -Proxy pylon warp-in is a mid or late game upgrade one very big problem with this is when toss is late game 3+ bases and he has gate spread out we cant go back and find all our gates and warp them there, if we did that we would lose micro war sicne we are wasting so much time find our gates location ... | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On September 08 2011 19:24 Peleus wrote: Be pretty cool if warpin time was dependant on the distance from the nearest nexus. Would allow a clearer defenders advantage in both PvP and other matchups at home (let's say very short ~0.5 - 1 second warp in) while at a longer distance (capped at a certain amount so maps don't effect it as much) ~7/8 seconds at the extreme. Times could be played with for balance, but the main idea (gaining a defenders advantage) is achieved, while the unique race trait of protoss is maintained as they could still warp in anywhere on the map (and still pool up significant forces). P.s. I'm just suggesting that warpin times are extended; cool downs will remain the same for the same net production capability. That would create pretty cool dynamics in blink stalker based PvP with spread out expansions xD Expanding towards your opponent to create more aggression would be a hilarious change! | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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