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On September 08 2011 22:50 Nizzy wrote:Yeah I agree that it's a decent read. I really struggle late game vs Protoss players that go templar tech and 20 warp gates. M&M simply don't kill chargelots I don't care what anyone says. It's so frustrating when we fight in the middle, go even, however he warps in 20 chargelots and I have to wait 15 seconds for my units to walk. Plus another thing is that when you warp it you can pick the positioning. It's 250 food vs 200 food armies. Zerg with instant tech switch and possible 50+larva just sitting around on 3 hatch... Terran can't reproduce at the levels of these other races. They just die if the bulk of the army is dead. I can't wait for HotS to see how Terran is "complete". It better involve a tech-reactor upgrade. 
Late game.. you should have ghosts.. in which case the protoss is gonna melt in 2 seconds, reinforcements or not. :S
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The solution is simple. Remove the weaksauce, cost inefficient stalker (atleast till you get blink but even after that its only due to mobility) , and bring back the dragoon. Remove warpgates as well if you want.
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On September 08 2011 22:53 windsupernova wrote:
I thought we were all over the ¨I want to design the game¨ phase.
It seems not. Warpgate didn´t break protoss, just a few months ago Protoss were doign well, it may have been the WG nerf or the Metagame changing but can we stop blaming game design just because a race is having a hard time atm?
Every single time that a race is having a hard time, everybody claims that it was badly designed, broken, that it needs to be redesigned(and all the redesigns are just hey lets copy paste BW!).
Even with no warpgates Zealots and Dragoons would be ¨bad¨ in SC2, due to the new units the other races have, the improved controls. Warpgate is a really interesting and Novel concept, yeah its different but I have always been on the side of developers trying new things instead of being hindered by tradition.
Its not like its unreasonable that the game would feel imbalanced, the best testing is the playtesting. I am sure that for the expansions new units and abilities will be added to fill the holes in each races arsenal(like what happened from SC1 to BW).
Hey, but I guess its easier to say the game is broken and scream bad design everytime a race is in trouble. Although, with the new engine and units I can see how the Shield battery would be better in SC2 than it ever was in BW.
Thank you for some common sense in the discussion
Totally agree with you. Weekend designers are the best.
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Im amazed by how many people in this thread auctually think this is about Protoss Warpins being OP.
i see so many nerf protoss comments, that im thinking not many people read the OP or even thought about it.
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On September 08 2011 22:52 Goibon wrote:
I've always thought that Pylons should have a cooldown on warp ins so you restrict the number of units that can be warped in on a single pylon.
The only problem I can see with that is that it's basting a game already containing way too many variables for a player to handle with even more variables. It'd be the end of all Protoss non-air early aggression too, which at the moment is where most Protoss wins seem to be coming from.
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On September 08 2011 19:23 Immaterial wrote:
Saying that warpgate "broke" protoss is a bit sensationalist but your post makes some good points. Warpgate is conceptually really cool but in practice creates a lot of problems.
Agreed with OP and this post. I was expecting flame and imbalance ranting but this is actually very well thought-out.
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I was about to say, "Bolded, enumerated points and three pictures do not an in-depth analysis make." But that was actually a very interesting illustration of the design obstacles that Protoss face, and why they're problematic.
I dunno 'bout that shield battery, though.
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What an absurd OP. You basically under rate sentries and claim toss can't defend. T and z would flat out die without bunkers/spines, whereas toss have the single best defensive unit in the game. How about slicing up an army to your liking as a defenders advantage?
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I dont believe the Shield battery would help. I think it might even be worst. Consider a PvP, 1 person is going 4 gate and the other person going 3 gate blink stalker. Obviously, the 3 gater will use the shield battery and ramp to defend. But, the 4 gater will attack and put a offensive pylon and with this offensive pylon, he can also put a shield battery down as well. Since both player has shield battery, this will pretty much negates the point of having a shield battery in the first place.
Obviously, the shield battery does provide a way a strategic control of a certain area too but once again, it come down to the ramp. So I dont believe it would change much honestly.
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seeing people after 1 year writing about it BROKE a race makes me feel this whole good read is absolute moved in trollmode 
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On September 08 2011 23:13 f0rzaa wrote:
What an absurd OP. You basically under rate sentries and claim toss can't defend. T and z would flat out die without bunkers/spines, whereas toss have the single best defensive unit in the game. How about slicing up an army to your liking as a defenders advantage?
You clearly didnt read the whole OP before responding.
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You forget that the main reason for doing a timing attack is an important tech or tech unit, both of which you can't get via WarpGate.
So everything's fine as long as you can't warp in Colossus or VoidRays.
The timing where your OP seems to be true is between 6:00 and 7:00 -> not that huge
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here is what i always wonder about:
Protoss saves up and spends a TON of chrono boost for warpgate. Your problem seemed to be that you miss that extra wave of units that you get when WG finishes for crucial timings.
But what if you would spend your whole chrono boosts on chronoing out units instead of WG research? Wouldn't you have more units out than your opponent has until his WG research is finished, so you could clear the area around your base from warpin pylons? You can still get WG research in the long run, you just don't have to rush it that hard i think (at least if you want to be on the defending side)
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Awesome article
You really understand the game and have a good knowlege of meta-game
Also I like ur conclusion =)
Still toss are OP
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Make it so the further away you are from a Nexus you control, the longer it takes to warp in. Just my $0.02.
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On September 08 2011 23:18 RealQ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 23:13 f0rzaa wrote:
What an absurd OP. You basically under rate sentries and claim toss can't defend. T and z would flat out die without bunkers/spines, whereas toss have the single best defensive unit in the game. How about slicing up an army to your liking as a defenders advantage? You clearly didnt read the whole OP before responding.
I did read the whole OP and all his/her suggestions are absurd, it wouldn't be a slight buff, it would be just dumb how much of a gain something like his suggestion of a shield battery or whatever would be. While his "analysis" is great, fine, detailed w/e his suggestions aren't even close.
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Man, protoss defense is crazy good.
You dont need to spend a dime in it, and the moment you see the ling runby you just warp 6 zealots in the probe line. If there is no runby, you warp them with the attack.
A drop? spawn 2 stalkers to kill the medvac and 4 zealots to kill the units.
Got the money? just warp some cannons at each expo, which are the best static defense in the game. Detection, anti ground and antiair all in one.
If that is not enough, well, either your army should have been there to fight or making an equivalent damage to the opponent.
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Well stated and interesting food for thought. I've always thought that the balance of the relative strengths of Gateway vs Stargate/Robo units was very strange. But you're right on the assumption of short rallies, which is why 4gate is scary.
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I don't like any of your options both of those will broke the game complety. I think now its balanced if they add battery well expect some warp prism+proxy battery into infinity shield 3gate robo builds lulz.
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I have to agree with you, however i don't know how to easily fix this.
One thing that used to be in the game was that protoss units during warp-in take extra damage, a mechanic that i really rather liked, however at this point now, even if it was reimplemented alongside with a gateway unit buff, it probably wouldnt work out.
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EPT
