EPTThe Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 4
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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ryan__h
United States42 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:45 Highways wrote: I agree with this, warpgate is a pretty big design flaw. Warpgate cool down should be based on the distance from the warpgate. The further you warp a unit from the warpgate the more cool down there is. This solution will keep defenders advantage while making attacking warp-ins a riskier play. i was basically thinking the same except i was thinking of making the cooldown time dependent on how far the warp-ins are from the starting nexus.... but i like your idea better. the only problem would be figuring out different cooldowns for different size maps. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
that's how this article went for me | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
I feel like the larva injects and add-ons play some part in this... | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 08 2011 19:12 susySquark wrote: No specific idea. The one I put in the OP was that units should take longer to warp in if they're further from a gateway/nexus or something. That's the first thing that popped into my head anyways. I actually really love this idea. It doesn't really change 4gate other than the player defending will be able to warp in units quicker to give him more of an advantage. That's a really cool idea actually. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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Majk
Sweden146 Posts
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
But shield battery is not a solution. Bring Lurkers and reavers back plz! | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:56 mizU wrote: Isn't this negated somehow seeing as how Protosses aren't winning majority of their matches with this broken mechanic? I feel like the larva injects and add-ons play some part in this... Well some line of thinking is that Protoss are weak BECAUSE of the broken mechanic. They have to balance against this constantly. They can't buff gateway units too much because warp gate negates any defenders advantage so if you make them good then they become too strong offensively. Without this concern they can still be strong but because there's a defenders advantage they won't become to o strong offensively. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
 , would be quiet cool and you can still proxy with warp prism . (i like if you have to watch for 100 things)And from playing all races i have the most problem with terran macro tbh. Addon mechanic and the cost for production facilities are a big factor when it comes to terran macro, also the space x3. At the end i think terran macro costs the most actions, while the other races have timings they have to stick too. And by the way i guess using normal gates is still cheaper then terran production. (even though you need 50% more) So at the end nothing wrong with warpin it will never go away anyway, and whats wrong with forcing the opponent to go probe and pylon hunting early game. Just be happy that toss units can't jump into one pylon and appear at another one. (but it would be a funny reaperish unit for one of the expansions.) | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
The other thing is that your point is that P need a defensive buff, but P often turtle better than any other race and come out with a game ending deathball. This is in contradiction to the buff you want to implement. | ||
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Highways
Australia6104 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:56 mizU wrote: Isn't this negated somehow seeing as how Protosses aren't winning majority of their matches with this broken mechanic? It's not just a balance issue, but a gameplay issue. Current warpgate makes gameplay boring as well. Right now Protoss is forced into early timing attacks, because the longer the game goes on unless Protoss has a massive lead from early game they lose alot of the time. | ||
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A-BomB
Ireland79 Posts
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:49 Comprissent wrote: Very old info. It's been widely known since beta that wg 'removes defender's advantage'. So why hasn't protoss been dominating? Is there some key that all protoss players have been missing in order to abuse this huge advantage? Your main point of contention is that timing attacks are different, rather stronger for a protoss. This really isn't true. Any race can build a ton of units, get some upgrades, and then move out right at a certain point to hit an opponent. All races just have to move out before an important upgrade is done, and then atttack. The reinforcing units are usually negligible, since you are either all-in or have a reliable follow up that does not involve committing reinforcements. A timing attack is the first hit on the opponent, not the repeated hitting over and over from reinforcements. Warpgate doesn't make a timing push stronger, it just makes reinforcing a little easier. + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2011 20:09 siri wrote: you are wrong about warp gate not being good at defending the strength of warpgates is equally strong offensively and defensibly. Its even more noticeable at defending! example: terran to do a timing push needs to have minerals at time X to start production. now lets say terran needs 30 seconds to build the army and the distance from his base to the target is 30 seconds. That means a delay of 1 minutes the moment you collect minerals to the moment your army built from those minerals hit the target. While protoss only has the delay of 5 seconds. Which also means that a 8minutes timing attack from terran is a 7minutes army against a 8minutes protoss army which if you take the account that your productions only really starts to kick in at about 4/5 minutes in to the game, early timings the protoss can have 1/3 more army than terran and still lose because to balance this gateway units need to be weaker compared to t1 units from other races. conclusion: WP is the most BROKEN mechanic in the game (2º is forcefield) and still protoss is very vulnerable to all ins because how weaker gateway units need to be. Honestly I dream one day WP be only upgradable on a fleet beacon. This is the same for every race... If zerg moves out at 7:00 to attack a terran and takes 60 seconds to move about, it's a 7:00 zerg army attacking a 8:00 terran army. notice how the OP talks about defensive structures for T and Z that is streamlined with unit production buildings (Barracks and Spawning pool respectively). That's why the OP talks mainly about the "defender's advantage" situation in PvP since Protoss's defensive structure, the cannon, requires a different techtree at the start of the game. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
On September 08 2011 20:09 siri wrote: you are wrong about warp gate not being good at defending the strength of warpgates is equally strong offensively and defensibly. Its even more noticeable at defending! example: terran to do a timing push needs to have minerals at time X to start production. now lets say terran needs 30 seconds to build the army and the distance from his base to the target is 30 seconds. That means a delay of 1 minutes the moment you collect minerals to the moment your army built from those minerals hit the target. While protoss only has the delay of 5 seconds. Which also means that a 8minutes timing attack from terran is a 7minutes army against a 8minutes protoss army which if you take the account that your productions only really starts to kick in at about 4/5 minutes in to the game, early timings the protoss can have 1/3 more army than terran and still lose because to balance this gateway units need to be weaker compared to t1 units from other races. conclusion: WP is the most BROKEN mechanic in the game (2º is forcefield) and still protoss is very vulnerable to all ins because how weaker gateway units need to be. Honestly I dream one day WP be only upgradable on a fleet beacon. You are totally missing the OP's point. Warpgates are front-loaded in terms of cooldown (or build time), so in theory there could be one additional cycle of units before the push as compared to the same build with gateways (if one assumed the same build-time as WG cooldown). Your 5 second example is not going to work when your warpgate cooldown is still active (you won't be able to warp in any units). Also your 8min army vs 7min army does not take into account Protoss met-game which has meant that, since WG allows for shorter cooldown as compared to gateway build time, protoss generally rush to WG and don't build out of gateways much and line up their gateway production to matchup with WG research time. Therefore a Protoss army pre-WG is usually very small. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
Broken, not broken, it doesnt matter. The warp in mechanic is a beautiful creation unique not only to protoss but any other RTS ever made, and i love it  | ||
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Akhee
Brazil811 Posts
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17Sphynx17
580 Posts
Assuming zealots normally take 40 seconds to train. And that converting from warpgate takes 5 seconds to finish then if you are on gateway mode, it should take 5 seconds less to train each unit every cycle and back to +5 seconds for warping in battle. It ends up giving gateway mode a defensive advantage and warpgate an offensive advantage at least. This might be a bit tricky though when it comes to the issue of cooldown wherein you train units out, to defend and convert to warpgate and warpin units immediately using a proxy pylon or warp prism to counter attack while defending the enemy's push. I also never got to play beta so I don't know how the teleportation of the cannons worked backed then. It was interesting though as it removed the 'static' limitation of the cannons as defense. | ||
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VPVash
United States139 Posts
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Akhee
Brazil811 Posts
On September 08 2011 21:21 BuddhaMonk wrote: You are totally missing the OP's point. Warpgates are front-loaded in terms of cooldown (or build time), so in theory there could be one additional cycle of units before the push as compared to the same build with gateways (if one assumed the same build-time as WG cooldown). Your 5 second example is not going to work when your warpgate cooldown is still active (you won't be able to warp in any units). Also your 8min army vs 7min army does not take into account Protoss met-game which has meant that, since WG allows for shorter cooldown as compared to gateway build time, protoss generally rush to WG and don't build out of gateways much and line up their gateway production to matchup with WG research time. Therefore a Protoss army pre-WG is usually very small. oh you gotta remember warpgate production is not even near to broken, its a 140 research that we "mule" it a lot, it should have any advantage, didn't it? | ||
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