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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 13:55 Soliduok wrote:
I never saw early blink all-ins to be an issue, it's the superb mobility and easy retention of the unit that I think is a bit ridiculous. They don't need to nerf the research time, the need to nerf blink cooldown time
They were an issue in PvP, the timing of blink basically made it impossible to get the critical mass of immortals needed to defend when going robo vs twilight council, it was so bad people were blinking directly up ramps into zealots and immortals, PvZ I feel like was just a side-effect but I can't say I'm sad to see it go even as a protoss player, the immortal buff seems like a much more sane compensation.
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On August 25 2011 13:52 BlindKill wrote:Whats the point of researching Blues if they still 3 shots harvesters 
Can't they still 2 shot zerglings with the BF upgrade? Can't they still decimate marine packs better with BF upgrade? Still useful.
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I don't understand...Zergs are just now figuring out how to completely demolish hellions and they nerf them anyways...
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Im giddy liek a schoolgirl with these patch notes xDxDxD
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Good to see that Protoss can really start drop play :D
Ultras look like they will be used more now late game.
And I love the hellion nerf because it was terrible for almost every TvT I watch where they would banshee rush eachother, kill a bunch of SCVs, then transition into BF and get a million more SCV kills that way, essentially keeping the game super low econ and ruining the beautiful strategy and tactic fest that is TvT
Edit: Also the Immortal buff makes me so excited :D my fav unit finally getting a buff!
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well i can already tell the biggest changes if these patches go threw
1) pvp 4gate is nerfed alot because of immortal range buff.. this mean they will actually be shooting in battles, Since the 2nd most popular build in Pvp was mass blink stalkers, the nerf in cooldown seems totally adjusted for around immortal timing, So it looks like the immortal buff is now the END of 4 gate, So PVP will now venture onto new things
2)barracks build time increase= thats a nerf to TvZ dual rax early bunkers, you have 5 seconds more to react. I fear the consquenses of this in TvP however, proxy dual gate looking strong now, terran might have to cut workers and scout really early to get a faster rax if this is coming.
3)Warp Prisim harass is probably going to affect zerg the most, they usually dont go muta because of blink stalker, so knowing this tosses can take full advantage
4) zerg infestor nerf is pretty substanial, however wow @ the ultralisk buff, thats pretty huge, if you got shitload of resources, the incoming reinforment waves of ultras after a fight will clean up .
5) TvT is also going to see a massssssive change in strategy, why?? because of the blue flame nerf, the question now is, will blue flames be able to stand up against marines? if not, marine tank looks like its coming back into action for tvt.
6)TvP = 111 is nerfed, immortal + range will help against tanks, also sentry guardain shield is probably going to reduce more damage . Now because of the immortal range buff, Bio is going to be even harder to pull off, what more can terran players do? archons /high templars/colosus/few immortals/and having to kite chargelots. jesus christ, unless a mech build comes for terran in this matchup, it continues to be my least favorite.
7)Zvs Any race, for the ones that relied on ALOT of infestors , they might , just might have to rethink their strategys, ( players like destiny) however they still are very strong.
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On August 25 2011 13:58 Petninja wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:52 BlindKill wrote:Whats the point of researching Blues if they still 3 shots harvesters Can't they still 2 shot zerglings with the BF upgrade? Can't they still decimate marine packs better with BF upgrade? Still useful.
Marine packs already beat BFH hellions, so long as they have combat shields, stim and medivacs. Light support from marauders/tanks only makes it more one-sided.
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I really don't fucking understand the barracks nerf. +5 seconds messes alot with the already concrete standard opening of 12 rax 15 orbital..
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On August 25 2011 13:56 Photon In A CANon wrote:
Hope blue flame drop is not completely undo-able now.....I really liked that....favorite thing about playing terran.
LINE EM UP!
If you drop 4 hellions, blue flame or no, zerg has got some trouble coming. But if he's trying to defend with speedlings only, blue flame can be very helpful. I think their goal was to make blue flame an upgrade people got when they saw their opponent with a unit composition that was very high in light units, rather than something terran's pretty much always get because it's worth it in extra worker kills alone.
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What an interesting patch. Lots of neat subtle changes that I think were really called for.
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On August 25 2011 13:51 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On August 25 2011 13:39 SetStndbySmn wrote:
do you... do you realize carriers arn't aoe? things like this make people think you really only have a good understanding of your own race, and your opinion is meaningless bias. Which is why most of my comments were geared toward TvT, most of the Protoss changes were heavily praised (I only disagreed with the WP buff) and the Zerg changes were considered unnecessary, in other words I'm fairly neutral on the Zerg changes. But, no, please dismiss the whole post because you don't consider Carriers to be AOE. And, judging from other comments, it seems like many others are also questioning the Terran nerfs. It's not like I'm against Terran nerfs, this is just not the way to do it. At this point Blizzard needs to be using a scalpel, not a baseball bat.
lol it's not a matter if I "consider carriers to be AOE", it's just something they are not. And if you notice the second sentence in my post is a generalization- people in general WILL think you have no idea what you're talking about if you blatantly don't understand how a unit works. Think of it this way- if a pro player, or even someone I simply have no reason to think they have poor game understanding, posts something I initially disagree with, I try to put myself in their shoes and understand where they're coming from and what led them to their conclusions. If I then see them post something that's just plain false, I can say, "oh.... where they're coming from is not even understanding what all the units in the game do."
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Meh, I see regular hellions kill dozens of workers before someone can kill them about as often as I see blueflames do it in pro games... The unit is just poorly designed and takes very little skill and often just luck to win games. Even when they get "countered" they keep you in your base babysitting your mineral line for most of early/mid game for almost no cost which is damn good by itself. IMO it should either cost 25 gas to make (costing just minerals makes it wayy too cost effective) or just be removed in HOTS and replaced with something like toned down vultures, at least you saw some skillful play with spider mines, helions are just herpderp run in and click on the workers.
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On August 25 2011 13:58 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:55 Soliduok wrote:
I never saw early blink all-ins to be an issue, it's the superb mobility and easy retention of the unit that I think is a bit ridiculous. They don't need to nerf the research time, the need to nerf blink cooldown time They were an issue in PvP, the timing of blink basically made it impossible to get the critical mass of immortals needed to defend when going robo vs twilight council, it was so bad people were blinking directly up ramps into zealots and immortals, PvZ I feel like was just a side-effect but I can't say I'm sad to see it go even as a protoss player, the immortal buff seems like a much more sane compensation.
Oh ok I see. I didn't consider that change for the PvP matchup at all to be honest. Thank you for clarifying. I guess I'll just take this one as a small victory for the Zerg race =]
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On August 25 2011 13:46 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Defense against hellions was already getting figured out. This nerf is totally unnecessary. Zergs have long learned to defend against them, Protosses have no fear of them and Terrans were learning to cope. 19 damage is still enough to 2-shot lings, just not workers until +2 mech weapons. Even worse, now zealots and marines are even MORE effective against hellions, when hellions should totally own both. This is the type of nerf that will remove the unit from the game, just like reapers, and Blizzard needs to be making Terran units less specialized and more cohesive, not the opposite.
Either remove Pre-igniter altogether and give hellions a +3 damage buff (11 +6 v light) or raise the hellion rate of fire and add a pre-attack pause, like in the alpha, like Thors currently have. This will force hellions to stay stationary before they fire, which will make hellion raids less effective, but allow them to gel more easily into a greater army mix.
Really Blizzard should be changing the Hellion to make it more effective in a general army and less effective in a raid. A straight-up nerf like this one will only remove it from the game, which is tragic, since the Hellion had essentially just entered the game.
This is a GREAT point because it addresses a big flaw in Blizzard's design process with SC2 so far.
QFT
This^^^
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On August 25 2011 13:56 iCanada wrote:
Ravens have become a ricidulously good unit.
If you told BW players two years ago that Terran was going to get Shuttle+Reaver+Defiler in one unit, no Zerg/Toss players would have switched.
EDIT: Also, Immortals scare the hell out of me now... Time to play ZvP without Roaches.
Which unit is this? raven only does 2 of those things...you mean medivac minus the heal?
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Hellions should be able to land mines (like vultures) with an upgrade :D
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Rax build time should remain the same
Reduce Blue Flame from 10 to 8
With that, the patch over all is great. Love the buffs to protoss; the buff to ultra build time seems like another bypass at fixing the unit as a whole, but we'll see where it goes. Yet again, however, Blizzard tends to listen to Terran QQ much too much.
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On August 25 2011 13:46 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. What does this mean? Can you use Storm now if you take over an HT for example? Or maybe they only mean passive abilities like detection or heal?
You already can storm with a NP'ed HT.
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All these changes seem pretty good, except for the +5 second build time on rax, where did that come from?
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EPT
