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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 09 2011 22:02 Slaytilost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 21:47 SharkStarcraft wrote:
What the FUCK why is blizzard so STUPID how am i supposed to kill the deathball now? With fungal? Holy shit i cant even believe it why does Blizzard nerf such a fundamental spell, ZvP is unwinnable now, unless Corrupters get a GIANT buff.
Otherwise i will play Toss, fuck the ultralisk buff, that infestor shit is simply a joke. Colossus balls are as OP as never before. You might want to wait untill this all is live, lots of changes made on the PTR havent made it.
While I agree that it will be tough for zergs to deal with the death ball, you must realize it's not fair to have almost every unit hard countered by the infestor. Making it do this was their mistake, they are trying to fix it now. In a fight where 2 armies are worth about 5000 each, it's not exactly fair for a zerg to be able to take control of 5 units, that represent half of the opponents army value, and just roll them.
Roach, corruptor, infestor will probably deal with the deathball if properly controlled, infestor ultra is very good against it also (double splash dmg, FF's don't work,ultras just got a huge buff, and if they made a bunch of colossus and not immortals they are in trouble), baneling drops smash the death ball also (see: Morrow) and I've also seen zergs doing roach hydra drops all over protoss's bases (once they are on 3) and stopping the death ball from ever occurring. It can be dealt with.... but having infestors counter every gateway/robo/air unit except HT's isn't balanced. Protoss's army costs many times more gas just to deal with roach balls, they simply can't afford the gas to match infestor production with HT's. When you also consider the higher cost to tech to HT's the long wait for them to charge energy, and the higher cost for all of protoss's other upgrades and tech.
It should be obvious that this is a step in the right direction, zerg should not be able to just make roaches and infestors and deal with any composition. Which gives them a free ride into the late game. A lot of zergs don't even bother scouting after the 2 base point anymore. They don't need to, they just make infestors.
Zergs REALLY need to start utilizing all of the other untapped potential they have. Drop play, nydus for harassing and expanding, ultras, contamination (imagine a protoss with 1 robo losing 2 minutes of production!) and tech switches. Their is so much we haven't seen yet in this match up, but going roach, hydra, corrupter for most of a year and calling imbalance was just lame on the part of some zerg players. Infestors got insane buffs, and then we saw a ton of just roach, infestor.
It's zerg players like morrow that I really admire, he took a unit (baneling) every other zerg claimed was useless against protoss and owned with it. Players like spanishiwa owning with ultras, and destiny crushing with infested terrans. I really think there will be some serious innovation to come in this match up, as long as players start getting creative and using every tool at their disposal.
But saying "ZvP is unwinnable now" unless you get a "giant buff to corrupters" is exactly the thinking that stops zergs from innovating. I remember when fungal was going to loose it's ability to hit air units, and this is the same kind of crap we heard which stopped the change from happening. 1 unit shouldn't hard counter literally every other unit of a race except 1, It's absurd.
I also don't see why zergs complain about protoss so much, SINCE RELEASE, Terrans have had the best stats in SC2. TvZ stats are more Terran favored than PvZ is protoss favored, the PvZ matc hup has just been much more volatile. But this Death ball is unstoppable thinking is WAY outdated and flat out wrong.
Nueral parisite will still work on Void rays, Ht's, and immortals. Well it still works on every other unit except, Archons, Colossus, Carriers, and motherships. 2 of these units are actually just myths tho 
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As a Protoss player I am delighted NP no longer can target massive units, because I love my Colossus. But I am also shocked. This makes the spell almost completely useless, there is no reason to spend so many resources on Infestors and the NP upgrade just to neural Tanks or Void Rays (and risk having the NP broken immediately), especially when you could have used the same energy to basically guarentee damage with Fungal Growth or Infested Terrans.
While I think that Infestors are too strong, Zerg simply lacks anything else decent. Broods are good in some situations. Ultralisks are awful because of their AI. Hydralisks are awful because they are slow, have no health, cost a lot, and yet still don't do as much damage as two stimmed Marines.
So this NP change should be combined with some buffs. Like removing the light attribute from Hydralisks, so they aren't chewed apart by Hellions/Ghosts/Phoenixes/Banelings. And give Ultralisks a decent AI in addition to lowering their build time.
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''Patch 1.4 fixed a problem where neural parasite was useful.''
Seriously it makes no sense at all, might aswell remove the spell.
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On September 09 2011 22:28 R3demption wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:26 MadNeSs wrote:
I wonder how they came up with the 2.953 number for seeker missile. Ever punch in random calculations into a calculator? That number is the speed of a cheetah (75 mph) divided by 25.3979004 and that is how they got that number sir.
Oh, totally makes sense now! Thanks man!
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On September 09 2011 22:36 Elite__ wrote:
i'm really confused about neural not being usable on massive units... i mean, that leaves immortals as the only key target that i can think of off the top of my head
it's probably not going to be used at all anymore, but maybe that is their intention
I have a feeling we will see fungals + infested terrrans in every big fight. Without the obvious choice of neural to use, and all that left over energy, just spam infested terran. Fungal will root everything so you cant just disengage. Honestly I don't see why this isn't the major tactic used, infestor marine DPS is insane.
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I like the Neural change, and although a lot of people Zergs are unhappy with it, I think everyone in the world can agree that Neural at least should not work on Motherships.
On September 09 2011 22:39 Moralez wrote:
''Patch 1.4 fixed a problem where neural parasite was useful.''
Seriously it makes no sense at all, might aswell remove the spell.
People also said this when:
Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit.
Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds.
Neural Parasite can now target Air units.
Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
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Of course, this is still PTR. There have been infestor changes before that didn't make it into the game.
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On September 09 2011 22:34 foxorz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:31 KeksX wrote:On September 09 2011 22:28 Rampoon wrote:On September 09 2011 22:24 Huragius wrote:On September 09 2011 21:53 EmilA wrote:On September 09 2011 21:48 Terkill wrote:
And what is up with the teamliquid reactions to this patch? How many percent of the users on this site are bronze players not having a clue about balancement in terms of games? A very low percent of the users are bronze. In fact, you can't be too highly ranked either, as there are very, very few danes at the top of ladder and I know all of them. I sure hope Blizzard won't cave in to the zerg whines this time, just because the Zerg community is by far the most vocal whiners  Blizzard is solving the mass infestor build. It's a support unit, intended for support, not as a "I have three spells, one kills all small units, one controls the bigger units and one kills buildings" unit. This.Thors got a nerf hammer in TvP because of the same reason (and unlike the Infestors, they weren't good against anything by their own). Also, almost everyone knows that zergs are the biggest hypocrites in the whole community, this is why I stopped giving a shit about their opinion on balance months ago. Man i am so happy you said this. I knew that i couldn't be alone in thinking these things! Almost anything posted by a zerg on the internet about balance makes me want to rip my eyes out  (not necessarily because it might be wrong or right but because of the attitude that it is their "god" given right to be correct over any T/P opinions, and also for zerg to be 100% win rate or else....) You reall think you are any different? Just stop this, it's the same thing that is addressed in the header of the thread. It doesn't lead to anything else but more flames. hes right..zergs all qq about everything even when they are doing fine in tournaments etc. zergs will just never be happy unless they win 100% of all games they play..its kinda annoying.
i think we are confusing all zergs with a certain zerg who will not be named and his fans
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On September 09 2011 22:37 BronzeKnee wrote:
As a Protoss player I am delighted NP no longer can target massive units, because I love my Colossus. But I am also shocked. This makes the spell almost completely useless, there is no reason to spend so many resources on Infestors and the NP upgrade just to neural Tanks or Void Rays (and risk having the NP broken immediately), especially when you could have used the same energy for Fungal Growth or Infested Terrans.
Robo play is getting some big buffs in this patch.
I dont understand your logic here, NPing siege tanks are amazing, AOE damage to your own marines? hell yes.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On September 09 2011 22:36 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:30 Genovi wrote:
I have 2 issues with the change to neural.
First of all, if you cannot neural massive units anymore then what the hell are you supposed to neural? The only two units worth doing that are immortals and tanks now. Tanks doesnt work because of the range and immortals are barely used as it is. Now neural becomes a 100% useless ability and it still only lasts for 12 secs...
Second issue is dealing with collo. Sure taking over all the collo and roflstomping protoss ball was ridiculous but also like the only way to actually deal with them since corruptors are so useless. Plus now if you will have to mass corruptors against collosi again ultras will become less used because the zerg will need to invest in spire tech and it wont be worth going ultras over bro-lords anymore. I cant say anything for sure but if this change goes through it will be reaaally tricky at first for zerg
I would like to query the bolded part. It kind of irritates me when people say that things simply cannot be done or don't work because on paper there is a problem with it; in this case that tanks outrange NP. And yet I see tanks getting neuraled all the time. Not only can it happen, it does. Although I agree with the broad point that NP's usefulness is decreased to basically fuck all after this patch.
and i, personally, rarely see it happen. its all a matter of perspective.
i suppose the correct phrase is "it isn't as viable"
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On September 09 2011 22:40 RogerX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:37 BronzeKnee wrote:
As a Protoss player I am delighted NP no longer can target massive units, because I love my Colossus. But I am also shocked. This makes the spell almost completely useless, there is no reason to spend so many resources on Infestors and the NP upgrade just to neural Tanks or Void Rays (and risk having the NP broken immediately), especially when you could have used the same energy for Fungal Growth or Infested Terrans.
Robo play is getting some big buffs in this patch. I dont understand your logic here, NPing siege tanks are amazing, AOE damage to your own marines? hell yes.
Shows how much I know about TvZ. Either way, the NP might be broken immediately and the upgrade is costly, whereas with Fungal Growth, you guarentee damage to those Marines.
NP has a higher risk/reward, but the reward has considerably dropped off since it can't target massive units anymore.
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On September 09 2011 22:29 MadNeSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:27 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 22:26 MadNeSs wrote:
I wonder how they came up with the 2.953 number for seeker missile. Slightly faster than units with a speed of 2.95. ah makes sense
Actually, units with the displayed speed of 2.95 actually have a speed of 2.9531 (such as the stalker). Where they got this number from I have no idea...
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Stalker
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I ain't even worried, this wont make it to the live servers unless blizzard goes full retard.
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On September 09 2011 22:39 ZAiNs wrote:I like the Neural change, and although a lot of people Zergs are unhappy with it, I think everyone in the world can agree that Neural at least should not work on Motherships. Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:39 Moralez wrote:
''Patch 1.4 fixed a problem where neural parasite was useful.''
Seriously it makes no sense at all, might aswell remove the spell. People also said this when: Neural Parasite is now an upgrade at the Infestation Pit. Neural Parasite research costs 150/150 and 110 seconds. Neural Parasite can now target Air units. Neural Parasite energy cost increased from 50 to 100.
I agree that it should not work on mothership, but it should work on lossus / thors. or its just a useless spell.
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On September 09 2011 22:36 Elite__ wrote:
i'm really confused about neural not being usable on massive units... i mean, that leaves immortals as the only key target that i can think of off the top of my head
it's probably not going to be used at all anymore, but maybe that is their intention
I'd say it's still arguably worthwhile against, immortals, tanks, High Templars, Ghosts, possibly Ravens.
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On September 09 2011 22:25 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:24 Liudo wrote:
I always thought having mind control was an ability that could potentially get way out of hand and create nasty balance issues. I have been surprised that Blizzard would allow such a strong ability to exist in the first place, especially given the range of the ability, the duration, and the fact that anything can be mind controlled.
It's a problematic ability to balance so I think it is a good thing Blizzard addresses this issue of mind control.
If there is a problem that zerg is too weak without it, I would prefer to see zerg buffed in other ways rather than having one unit that has super strong abilities that are game changing at any and all stages and points of the game. You know in BW the Dark Archon had a mind control ability that was permanent and didn't require the DA to walk around with the mind controlled unit. It was awesome. And underused as far as I saw.
Fixed for you <3
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Infestors are just to viable, against anything. It's a big hit, and in return they might lower to cost or remove the time limit. But seein' 12 infestors take over 4-5 collosi, carpet fungaling, the blowing the rest of the energy on infested marines is just abit silly. They're the answer to everything at the moment.
Could even make NP a non channled spell, so the infestor wouldn't be locked down for the duration.
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I gotta say, I entirely love this change. Collos will actually be a lot more useful in PvZ, and archons too. Yes to this. YES.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
Now Blizzard should make Neural Parasite while burrowed and it will be perfect
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Woah, just checked in to see peoples opinion, and I am amazed to see the 'racist-hate' against Zergs o.O holy crap. Reminds me of why I never read these sort of topics :D
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EPT
