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On June 10 2011 02:44 RBKeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:38 XsebT wrote:On June 10 2011 02:34 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:29 XsebT wrote:On June 10 2011 02:27 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:06 Sensator wrote:
It's just a commercial, he gets sponsored and payed by SteelSeries, so he's promoting the product. Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. Grubby just promoted map hacking. Now read your comment. Now back to me... get it? It's not map hacking -- it's simplifying game controls. Besides that, you should READ my comment "How does it undermine competitive gaming?" It doesn't because it's not allowed in competitive gaming. No it's not map hacking, and that's not my fucking point. They both represent an unfair advantage, but apparently map hacking is much worse than having a bot doing controls for you? What is your point then? You obviously made a point about saying "Grubby just promoted map hacking" and took my comment about this products affect on competitive gaming right out of context.
I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this.
I wanted you to read your own comment, but with map hacking as the issue, in which case you'd probably disagree with yourself.
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So my keyboard uses macro keys but i dont need a third party software to use them, it seems to remember the setup by itself. Does this go against blizzards terms?
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On June 10 2011 02:47 MHT wrote:
So my keyboard uses macro keys but i dont need a third party software to use them, it seems to remember the setup by itself. Does this go against blizzards terms?
The third party software is programmed into your keyboard, this doesn't make it less of a third party program all of a sudden.
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On June 10 2011 02:45 ElPeque.fogata wrote:
this is a very complex game. i see it difficult for any of those macros to really give you any advantage past silver.
games are won and lost mainly by good decision making, possitioning, mindgames, scouting, etc. And optimal responses to all that stuff can't be made into macros.
the only game breaking stuff would be like... autoinjecting, auto creep spreading, etc. And most of the times "auto", would sometimes actually hurt you.
Say for example... you needed to save queen energy in one specific queen to place an important creep tumor, or to cast a transfuse that could win you the game.
I wouldn't use it even if i had it for free and it was allowed by blizzard.
I think you fail to see the potential this type of product offers. You can do way more than what the video shows you with minimal effort.
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Much of the critique here is hypocrite (or hugely uninformed): These keyboards (and software drivers doing the same) have been around for years and now suddenly people are behaving like this commercial will suddenly have using macro keying emerge. Is the commercial stupid? - Yes, there are good reasons to see it that way. It is worth such an outcry? - Not really.
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On June 10 2011 02:36 Khanz wrote:
Okay after reading the entire thread, i'm wondering if you really get banned...?
How can we be sure you get banned using this keyboard ?
what a total nonsens if blizzard is selling similar stuff >.< please someone enlighten me here
If you had really read the complete thread, you would know that Blizzard states that everything that macros keys to more than one keypress is considered cheating, and you will be banned for it if you get caught. Whether you will get caught or not obviously is not clear, but some people say some people have got banned over this. I don't work for Blizzard, and so i do not know what they can or can not detect. However, i generally prefer to simply not do stuff that will get you banned if you are caught, not because of a fear of a ban, but because i like to play a game in the fair way.
If you would read that thing where Blizzard sells that macro-keyboard, you should read it careful. They never say that you can use these macros in SC2, they simply move around it and imply that you can. Though i am of the opinion that that it not a nice thing to do, and obviously their goal is to make you think that that keyboard will help you in SC2, it is not what they say. Whenever they talk about macros helping in games, they use general terms like "gaming experience". Whenever they talk about starcraft, they don't talk about macros. "Makes you improve your APM" can refer to anything like maybe having keys being easier to touch, or stating on the key what it does in the game which can help you if you are at 10 apm and need to search for the key to do something every time.
Nothing is inherently wrong with macro keyboards, there seem to be completely reasonable uses for them. However, it is wrong to use these macros to get an advantage in competetive gaming. And people saying that it is not an advantage are simply wrong. Obviously macros like that "Anti-muta-thormarinebuildregroupamove" thing are stupid and useless. But you can make a simple macro that injects all of your hatcheries. You could probably even make that macro with delays that it injects you hatcheries every time the larvae pop. Or simply put a+leftclick on one other mousebutton. Bam, instantly saved time to do something else with. Sure, it is not a lot of time, but you amove stuff a lot, so it adds up. And that is just something from the top of my head. Smarter people than me could probably come up with a lot of other uses which are not insanely stupid and situational, but still give you a small advantage.
Edit: Also, a lot of people seem to fail to realize what this thread is about. It is not about macro keys. Everyone knows they have been around for a long time. It is about a progamer actively promoting something that is considered cheating by both blizzard and a lot of the community.
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On June 10 2011 02:43 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:40 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:36 Kiante wrote:
Cheesing is within the rules of the game. That doesn't devalue their effort. Cheating to beat people does, because it makes their efforts less legitimate.
say alot of people start using macro's on ladder. suddenly people look at a high ladder rank and go "lol he probably just macro's, ladder is stupid blah blah" and that persons effort is devalued.
Not everyone is going to go out and buy this though (this is obvious from the response that people have had in this thread). I'm sure there are cheaper and easier ways of "cheating" the game as opposed to this steel series keyboard, yet how many people do you run into on the ladder that actually use them? In my experience, not very much. Not everyone buying it is my point. If literally everyone was using them, then theres a level playing field. having SOME people using them creates an uneven playing field, making ladder ranking get devalued because its hard to take a competition where everyone doesn't start the game out equal seriously.
Again though, you have people (Pillage for example) who will exploit the system and devalue the ladder regardless.
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On June 10 2011 02:36 RBKeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:33 Klipsys wrote:
Because the rules can only do so much. In a LAN setting this can be prevented, but online tournaments probably cannot. I'm not naive, I understand this isn't the first nor the last of these types of keyboard, I think even mine has macro functions; A pro-gamer didn't tell me to buy this one thought.... Then maybe online tournaments need to change of be discontinued because by that logic anyone can take advantage of the system and ruin it. I don't want to start a discussion on online tournaments, but in my opinion LAN's will always be a higher calibre.
So now, we need to alter the way people play and enjoy the game because of this one device? The problem isn't the keyboard it's self anyway (alot exists already) it's the endorsement of the pro-gamer
If it's no big deal, and it's not targeted towards us (Esports Enthusiasts) Why use grubby at all? Why not use a no-name actor? They don't even put the disclaimer in the video, just at the end of the description. This was done intentionally, to basically imply he uses this keyboard. Why not say in the video " I don't use this keyboard, I don't think you should either except for practice and against AI" Because then they wouldn't sell any.
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On June 10 2011 02:30 Klipsys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:20 Samiz wrote:
This is seriously giving Grubby a bad name. If you know anything about him, you'd know that he's one of the most honest pro-gamers who always does things by the book. You have to realize that him doing this commercial is part of the business. If SteelSeries implements something like this, they are completely responsible for this product. Grubby is simply a spokesperson for SteelSeries.
Besides, there is a good chance that SteelSeries told Grubby that this was legal in non-tournament play No, I'm sorry but that's just not how it works. In most cases, yes you're correct, but in this instance, with a product that blatantly violates rules of battle.net there was a serious lapse in judgment here. His refusal to promote this wouldn't have resulted in him being dropped, that's asinine, especcialy given the factors surrounding it's use. Even with 100% blizzard support (which I doubt but still) Remember how much flack Richman (NamhciR) got for smurfing in a tournament? How is this not the same thing? Because he was paid to do it?
You can blame either Grubby or SteelSeries for this. All I'm trying to say is that it's not right to blame Grubby. Being affiliated with a company does not make you responsible for what the company does or supports. Grubby has a contract with SteelSeries and judging by this post by SteelSeries on the youtube video, they clearly believe that this is legal:
"As mentioned in the disclaimer above, we are of course aware that most tournaments are not allowing macro use. However, the majority of SC2 players are not playing competitively, and could benefit from using these features. Grubby is of course only demonstrating the use of the keyboard and software, as he is an active professional. Apologies for any confusion this might have caused. 
SteelSeries 1 day ago"
It's not right to crucify Grubby for a mistake made by SteelSeries. You're right when you say that it was probably a lapse in judgment from Grubby but ultimately, it is the responsibility of SteelSeries because Grubby is just doing his job. Also, I'd really like to hear what Grubby has to say about all of this. Knowing Grubby, I wouldn't be surprised if he cuts off his affiliation with SteelSeries after realizing what's actually happened. SteelSeries messed up, not Grubby.
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This is not cheating.
Blizzard themselves support this:
http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142
This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this.
If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby.
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On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby.
LOL! haters gonna hate! /thread
User was warned for this post
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On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby.
This has been posted like 5 times in this thread, and you need to learn to read carefully what they actually write about that keyboard, and compare it to what you think they mean. Hint: It is not the same.
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Macros are nothing new. This is steelseries fault for not reading ToS and promoting this, I wouldn't put much blame on Grubby.
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its only cheating if you do it with an non blizzard aproved keyboard.... tournaments wont allow it anyways, yeah its stupid but omg!!¡¡!! on to a new topic pls.
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On June 10 2011 02:46 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:44 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:38 XsebT wrote:On June 10 2011 02:34 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:29 XsebT wrote:On June 10 2011 02:27 RBKeys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:18 Klipsys wrote:On June 10 2011 02:06 Sensator wrote:
It's just a commercial, he gets sponsored and payed by SteelSeries, so he's promoting the product. Are you serious? He's a PRO GAMER, advertising a product that UNDERMINES COMPETITIVE GAMING! How does it undermine competitive gaming? Any worth while tournament is going to make some kind of ruling against something like this, and if they don't or fail to enforce their rule then it's their own fault. Competitive gaming is fine lol. Grubby just promoted map hacking. Now read your comment. Now back to me... get it? It's not map hacking -- it's simplifying game controls. Besides that, you should READ my comment "How does it undermine competitive gaming?" It doesn't because it's not allowed in competitive gaming. No it's not map hacking, and that's not my fucking point. They both represent an unfair advantage, but apparently map hacking is much worse than having a bot doing controls for you? What is your point then? You obviously made a point about saying "Grubby just promoted map hacking" and took my comment about this products affect on competitive gaming right out of context. I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. I wanted you to read your own comment, but with map hacking as the issue, in which case you'd probably disagree with yourself.
I still don't understand what you are getting at. My initial comment would be the exact same if it was maphacking. Whether it's a keyboard or a program that some dude is running to gain an edge, it's going to be ruled out of competitive play; thus, competitive gaming isn't at risk -- at least, at anymore risk than it already is.
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On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby.
was said 100 times in this thread.
bliz write there name on it. but ban you if you use it.
You are allowed to use a macro keyboard but in the sec you activate a macro from this keyboard your cheating. this is the bliz answer. Fucked up? yes!
The difference is they say you should use the macro in sc2 andthey let it look like its total fair and a good move.
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On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby.
So should we believe the Battle.net ToS or should we believe what some Blizzard forum people allegedly said many years ago in relation to a completely different game?
Seems like quite a few people in this thread use these macros...
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On June 10 2011 02:12 Sky0 wrote:
I dont understand why blizzard supports macros in wow and not sc2 kind of wierd but in wow its part of the game not a 3rd party program if u could make macros in game with starcraft it wouldnt be illegal
You do not want macros in starcraft two. If people can't afford to by keyboards that do like 10 commands at once, that is giving that person a way higher advantage on the ladder. For tournaments it could be different, but i agree that macros do not have any place in SC2, aside from just messing around with friends or something.
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On June 10 2011 02:56 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. This has been posted like 5 times in this thread, and you need to learn to read carefully what they actually write about that keyboard, and compare it to what you think they mean. Hint: It is not the same.
Seriously, they sell a macro keyboard for SC2. And simply because they don't say you should use the macros themselves in SC2 makes it different? I am sorry, it does not. Blizzard has never ever cared for macroing. The only thing they banned people for, is them not sitting in front of the screen while macroing or using third party software interfering with the game data.
Also http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/pd/productID.169418900 and similar products have been out for ages too. Where is the difference?
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On June 10 2011 02:57 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 02:54 VIB wrote:This is not cheating.Blizzard themselves support this: http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142This topic is years late, this showed up for the first time when blizzard started selling wow keyboard with macros. Blizzard officially responded to this many times on the forums and they completely support this. If you don't like it, you only have blizzard to blame. Not steelseries nor grubby. was said 100 times in this thread. bliz write there name on it. but ban you if you use it. You are allowed to use a macro keyboard but in the sec you activate a macro from this keyboard your cheating. this is the bliz answer. Fucked up? yes! The difference is they say you should use the macro in sc2 andthey let it look like its total fair and a good move.
This is not their anwer. Neither can they detect it, not have they ever banned anyone for using macro mice or keyboards.
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EPT
