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France68 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 xsevR wrote:
I think we all now that Grubby invented Macro keyboards and is responsible for anyone using them...
It's not cheating to demo the feature of a product, and there's clearly acceptable uses (single player?) for macros if blizzard sponsors other keyboards/they exist.
Using the keyboard, even if it's in a product video, isn't promoting cheating, because its possible to use the keyboard without cheating. Grubby is not responsible for this at all, and I highly doubt Steelseries would develop the product/make this add without some type of research. This isn't new information and it could mean a lot of their customers getting banned. Not only would this be a PR nightmare but would directly lose them customers and reputation. Again, not the first macro-keyboard to be advertised for SC2.
Grubby is just not advertizing the keyboard in this video, he is specifically explaining how to make macros so yes, that's promoting cheating.
Anyway, its not the end the world and I still wish for Grubby to be succesful in his sc2 carreer. Thing is, he actually did a mistake here, not a BIG mistake, but still a mistake.
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I think some people are just going overboard with this. There are a lot of keyboards out there that do the same exact thing. This isn't something new and innovative, and I feel that the people who do not know how to macro keys are the ones complaining here.
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I have seen pro's promoting all kinds of mouses and keyboards on youtube, without them really caring if they are telling the truth. does it really matter that Grubby promotes some macro's when the people that give him money asks that of him.
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On June 10 2011 01:46 SuperStyle wrote:
World of Warcraft has addons and custom keyboards to help you in pvp or pve, why shouldnt SC2 have ?
Those macros still require 1 press per action, or they are against the TOS. For example, I have a G15, and back in the day a switch stance and charge macro was fine to have on my G5 key, but I had to press it twice. Same thing in SC2.
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On June 10 2011 01:47 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:45 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 10 2011 01:44 Razuik wrote:On June 10 2011 01:42 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 10 2011 01:31 Kiante wrote:On June 10 2011 01:29 Torte de Lini wrote:
Does Grubby even know this is cheating? Select didn't know that playing on other people's accounts to raise their ranks was illegal. did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed. There's a difference between knowing and should know. See my previous example with Select. Yes, but if he installed the game then he must have reached a point at which he hit "I AGREE" to the terms of use. That means he can no longer say "Oh, I didn't know". Legally, yeah. I was speaking more on general terms and in a hypothetic situation. It's not a strong argument, I'll agree, just a point to consider. I can see what you mean. In the eyes of a fan the "I AGREE" doesn't effect them. He is responsible in terms of relation to blizzard.
Yeah, thanks for understanding. That was essentially what I meant.
Doesn't make it any more right though or acceptable, just might make more sense.
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Wow... I think Blizzard makes it pretty clear in the ToS that you can't use any third party software like that. I don't think the keyswitching is a problem, but the macros definitely are. In most circumstances they wouldn't me a big deal, but you might be able to set up build order specific macros that would make it way too easy to macro while banshee harassing, for example or something along those lines. In reality, it won't make the great players any better, but it could help lesser players reach higher levels without effort of practice. Blegh. I don't like it. Fortunately, I believe when you agree to the ToS, Blizzard is allowed to scan your system for software. Probably with the next patch they will make this specific driver "illegal" or whatever they do for unapproved third party software.
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http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100001142
The really damning part about this advert by Blizzard is when it says it can help Starcraft II players increase their APM. This means they expect you to use macros while playing, not 1:1 rebinds. Grubby has been around the scene a long time and does not promote cheating. He put a disclaimer in the video saying not to use the macros competitively. I can't find the disclaimer on the Blizzard keyboard.
I know that we are saying that the Blizzard keyboard is shady, and that it is a red herring. But how do you blame Grubby for doing the same thing as the Blizzard store? Especially when Grubby at least has the decency to say to not use it competitively.
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I lol at the comments of some guys:
"it's like hitler"
"add with murder.. bla bla"
WTF? it's a fucking add do advertise what you can do with the keyboard! Do you guys only use your keyboard to play SC2? Can't a SC2 famous player make a add using the game he is knowned for explaining what you can do with the keyboard?
Blizzard sells this and most agree that macros won't even give you an edge or atleast it's very debatable..
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On June 10 2011 01:25 Jibba wrote:The title is the exact situation. Regardless of whether Blizzard does it too, Grubby is promoting a way to cheat in SC2. The counterarguments about Blizzard are just a red herring (although as I said before, Blizzard's actions are dubious as well.) Well the Steelseries ad is "worse" than Blizzards. However, it's Blizzards game which changes things. To illustrate: If the video was Blizzards and the blizzard ad was steelseries, would anyone call out steelseries?
Either way we don't know the background or anything. Perhaps Grubby thinks the only rules for these things are what tournaments decide. Perhaps he said something and steelseries showed him the blizzard ad or said they would of course include a disclaimer or whatever.
You don't have to have strong feelings or opinions or even think about these things just because you are a pro, a lot of them probably just focus on what matters to them like playing the game and getting better.
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On June 10 2011 01:46 SuperStyle wrote:
World of Warcraft has addons and custom keyboards to help you in pvp or pve, why shouldnt SC2 have ?
thats a completely different thing....
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 This must be a case of "any publicity is good publicity"
Blows my mind how Grubby is fine with being the guy who teaches people to cheat, surely he should realize that his image is worth more than whatever he is being paid?
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I think the only thing Grubby did wrong here was not to warn his sponsor that this is cheating and that this advertisement would make them look bad.
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On June 10 2011 01:45 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Can you really use the word illegal here?
afaik breaking a TOS isn't illegal.
Illegal in English means both against the law (illegal in German) as well as against the rules (verboten? in German).
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Stop blaming Grubby; blame SteelSeries. Grubby isn't trying to intentionally promote cheating, he's simply accepting offers by his sponsor to promote and advertise a product. SteelSeries didn't do their research and clearly does not realize that regardless of the degree of play, casual or competitive, macros are against the TOS. The only tip I could have given Grubby is to next time warn SteelSeries of these kinds of mistakes, but I doubt he would decline an offer which probably rewarded him a sizable hunk of cash in his pocket. Play to win.
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this thread is a joke? macro keyboards have been available, advertised and used for many years now, only that this is the first time a real pro gamer is talking about them
first of all the macros he showed are completely useless to a player who is any good
second of all the game cannot detect the use of a macro key because it's just a series of inputs that are the same as you pressing the keys yourself
third of all no one will get banned for macro key usage in sc2, because it isn't a concern to anyone.... i'd like to see a thread about someone complaining getting pummeled by a "macro key user"
and finally this is sc2, mechanics are much easier. The same thing in SC BW is a much different situation and i can understand people getting angry over it
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On June 10 2011 01:45 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 01:42 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 10 2011 01:31 Kiante wrote:On June 10 2011 01:29 Torte de Lini wrote:
Does Grubby even know this is cheating? Select didn't know that playing on other people's accounts to raise their ranks was illegal. did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed. There's a difference between knowing and should know. See my previous example with Select. Select is just as bad. you are forced to agree to the TOS when you install sc2 and theres no excuses when you fuck up, especially something this obvious and this public. assuming that select and grubby are just stupid is pretty dumb tbh. grubby played wc3 for years? Pretty sure they had similar rules in that too....
Select pulled the offer 4 minutes or so after the TL topic though
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On June 10 2011 01:54 Error Ash wrote:
I think the only thing Grubby did wrong here was not to warn his sponsor that this is cheating and that this advertisement would make them look bad.
Do u think he knew and didnt tell them. Im sure he just wasn't aware considering no pro is using macros anyway.
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On June 10 2011 01:31 Kiante wrote:
did grubby install sc2? If he did he would've agreed to the TOS. For something as shady as this the responsibility is his to go back and check that it's allowed.
Maybe he didn't read the ToS.
In which case Steve Jobs is entitled to transform him into the ultimate all-in-one human interfacing machine: the Human CentiPad.
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Very peculiar as Steelseries works so closely together with Blizzard. I know it's cheating, but are macros even detectable?
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The whole point is a pro shouldn't be endorsing something like this. Just shows how out of touch Steel series is with this community.
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EPT
