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On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences.
I know you're saying this in context of KR/NA and KR/EU but do your comments apply to EU/NA games?
i.e. In your opinion does is EU/NA cross-server so bad it invalidates alot of online results?
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Really looking forward to the Tournament, i hope there will be more Tournaments in the future covering 2v2's.
And thanks for the eye opening insight on some of Team Liquid's Progamers.
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On May 02 2011 16:40 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences. I know you're saying this in context of KR/NA and KR/EU but do your comments apply to EU/NA games? i.e. In your opinion does is EU/NA cross-server so bad it invalidates alot of online results?
its not ideal but its easily playable, i ladder on europe regularly but while i was in korea i was turning down prize tournament and showmatches on na because the latency is so bad.
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Regardless of Liquid being in Korea the fairer someone wants their tournament to be the more likely they will look at the server switching options between Europe and US. For tournaments and organizations this size to simply pick a server and force everyone to play there 'because it is their decision' is in my eyes not the future of this scene. I really hope that with time all the larger tournaments put player conditions above a small convenience regarding Europe vs US play just as much as I do for anything regarding Korea.
The only thing Liquid being in Korea has done to my vision on how server play should be handled by bigger tournaments is that it has given me perspective and the opportunity to talk through options and ideas. However the reason that I feel this is the future of big tournaments has nothing to do with Liquid but everything to do with fairness. I think everything TL does also represents this vision where we always try to look for the fairest rules. This can be seen from the TSL rules as well, which we created to be fair to all participants, and not just the ones on a certain hand picked server, seeing as how we want the TSL to be a global tournament. I have not heard a single objection from any player in the TSL about the fact that we make players switch between servers. As far as I can tell every player is really happy that we take player conditions serious enough to think about these things. So I hope that everyone in this thread can understand that I believe in fair conditions also outside of this tournament and the situation Liquid is in.
The EG tournament does not use guest accounts to hide game histories, does not ask for referees to be in games that are played beforehand. All that is needed is a player that is able to switch between servers; something that is really very simple. If accounts were an issue we said we could provide accounts anywhere for anyone to use. Though at this point I hope every professional SC2 player has accounts on Europe and US at least. We feel if it takes such a small effort (for replay cast tournaments) to create these player friendly rules and we hope that tournaments will consider them in the future.
Too many people here are ignoring the fact that Mouz, Dignitas, Millenium, MYM also join this tournament at a disadvantage. Something which ideally should also not be the case for a tournament with international aspirations.
It is also clear that many people in this thread do not understand the server situation. For those for teams there would be zero changes in their play against the Korea based Liquid players, because Europe vs Korea is always played on the US server. The only thing that would change for these teams is that their players would play more games on their home servers. I wouldn't mind hearing from the team leaders of these teams how they feel about switching between Europe and US when facing US players. I can hardly imagine they were presented with a situation where the only result is an advantage for them and they just shrugged it off saying Liquid shouldn't ask for preferential treatment or something.
On a separate note that has nothing to do with the industry but only with ourselves; always having to play in delay when your opponent has none is a big disadvantage. We have joined team leagues before and feel like we have come out worse than we actually are because of the delay. When we join something we always accept all the conditions we agreed to, whether there is a delay or not shouldn't matter at that point because a complaint should be made before a competition starts and not during. We've always tried to keep the delay complaints minimal publicly in order not to discredit opponents and leagues.
For this league we decided not to participate because we have learned from the past. This decision was made by the team together after getting everyones input.
On May 02 2011 16:29 IdrA wrote:
playing cross server destroys game quality and makes for meaningless results. liquid tries to downplay the effects of latency to make their tournament seem more legitimate, but how many people really think all the players from korea deserved to lose as early as they did to the people they did in tsl?
expecting a foreign team league to allow that to accommodate the one team that has a significant number of players in korea is fuckin silly.
until blizzard fixes battlenet players have to choose to focus on foreign or korean events and deal with the consequences.
The situation of players from Korea losing in the TSL: you're talking about Korea vs Europe play, which happened on the US server. The delay for Koreans would be larger than for Europeans. The thing is; there is already the exact same rule in this EG tournament. Koreans do indeed play Europeans on the US server and we ask for nothing different.
You can't just grab two random things you disagree with (Koreans losing in TSL + us asking for server accommodations) and make it seem like they are related.
That said if you feel like a tournament should not include teams that have players located in Korea at all, instead of changing the rules to create equal playing conditions, then that is something we can agree with which can be seen from us declining the invite.
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I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical...
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Pretty poorly handled by EG especially considering the precedent TL set for cross server play which has been swept under the rug for some reason
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate.
... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then?
Option 1: Everyone plays on NA
Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA
How is this not more fair?
I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair?
Why?
On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical...
Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4.
Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt.
I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it.
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Sixjax over Empire, r u srs? I guess it pays to be american/have Artosis as a captain.
(just a quick analysis player vs player of the teams most likely lineup):
 Kas - dde (lol do we even have to discuss it?)
 Nerchio - ViBE (just by looking purely result wise and me watching both players i can see a clear skill difference, no offense to ViBe, Nerchio is prolly top 3 eu z atm together with Stephano and Dimaga/MorroW/DarkForce)
Happy - SixjaxTerran/MajOr or w/e hes calling himself now (Happy has been doing well in pretty much any tourny hes participated in, where as Terran dosnt have any "real" results except for doing well in a FXO (i think) however this is debatable but ill still give a tiny edge to Happy)
Beastyqt - Mihai (Beasty has way more results and i see his name consistently at the top of EU tournies, i do not see Mihais name getting consistently high in NA cups/tournies)
Aristeo -  Artosis (Empire dosnt rly have anymore high profile players (like 4 top eu players isnt enough) Aristeo is prolly favorite vs Artosis anyway, at least before Artosis starts showing some results, which im sure hes capable of)
There may be stuff i dont know, like the case with Liquid. It just seems weird to me not inviting one of the strongest foreigner teams atm. Its silly to use their GCPL results btw since they often was using supbar lineups/didnt have Happy nor Nerchio (i think they didnt correct me if im wrong).
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On May 02 2011 16:52 Maliris wrote:
Pretty poorly handled by EG especially considering the precedent TL set for cross server play which has been swept under the rug for some reason
they set the precedent for a world wide tournament
that is not what this is. there are no korean teams for a reason. there isnt a fair way to have asian and western players compete online right now.
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On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate. ... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then? Option 1: Everyone plays on NA Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA How is this not more fair? I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair? Why? Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it.
Do you think every single online tournament should implement such a rule or only when they want Korean teams or players to participate?
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EG i love you for the 2v2
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 15:08 madrod wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 10:24 pHelix Equilibria wrote:On May 02 2011 10:22 lbmaian wrote:
Lots of top teams are being in every which direction by all the tournaments and leagues out there, so it's not surprising to see Liquid abstaining. Tyler said that Liquid showed interest, not abstaining. EG did not accommodate. My disgust with EG grows everyday. how can you say that? for all youl/we know Liquid may have requested advertisement space beyond what EG where willing to give, or perhaps they wanted more leniant rules on say, showing up late, or ANY OTHER POSSIBILITY. Please don't base your disgust on a team by blaming them for running a tournament the way they want. Fair enough it might've been a fair request from TL, but you don't know the details so leave EG alone.
Lol its nothing like that from either side, rest completely assured.
It can be summarized as thus:
- Liquid pushed hard for our games involving Korean-situated players to be played 50% NA 50% KR when facing NA players (obviously 100% NA if we face europeans, and 100% KR/China/Taiwan if we face Sen, who I think is the only other non NA/US player in the league).
- EG took it into consideration but did not agree to change their rules.
Nothing shadier than that from either side.
On May 02 2011 17:05 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate. ... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then? Option 1: Everyone plays on NA Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA How is this not more fair? I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair? Why? On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it. Do you think every single online tournament should implement such a rule or only when they want Korean teams or players to participate?
I would probably ask for the possibility anytime I participated as an individual, but I would most likely play anyway.
As this is a team event it feels a bit different to me.
I think ideally any bigger online tournament should have this format yes.
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On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate. ... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then? Option 1: Everyone plays on NA Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA How is this not more fair? I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair? Why? Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it.
its not impossible, but its really fucking hard, it makes for worse games, and it frustrates everyone involved.
why should teams in a non korean tournament be forced to deal with that because of the one team that has players in korea? liquid chose to have players in korea, that means you are the ones who have to deal with the inconveniences it creates when competing in foreign events.
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Switching servers between games is like switching sides of a playing field in soccer, volleyball, basketball.
It distributes the disadvantages on both teams somewhat equally. It's been the best practice for years.
If eSports aspires to become a widely recognized professional sport not just amongst the gamers, but through all layers of society this is one rule that I don't think can be ignored for much longer.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 02 2011 17:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate. ... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then? Option 1: Everyone plays on NA Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA How is this not more fair? I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair? Why? On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it. its not impossible, but its really fucking hard, it makes for worse games, and it frustrates everyone involved. why should teams in a non korean tournament be forced to deal with that because of the one team that has players in korea? liquid chose to have players in korea, that means you are the ones who have to deal with the inconveniences it creates when competing in foreign events.
If you ask us to play, why should we not ask for fair playing conditions?
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With Idra being one of my favourite players since bw I'm trying really hard to like EG... It is getting harder and harder though with the apparent only-US-matters attitude that isn't exactly helping the community to unite and grow.
While I realize it is EGs tournament and suspect that their #1 goal isn't to make me happy is still feel it is a shame that trying to be as fair as possible isn't more important to them.
Oh well.. gogo dignitas!
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On May 02 2011 17:10 xlat wrote:
With Idra being one of my favourite players since bw I'm trying really hard to like EG... It is getting harder and harder though with the apparent only-US-matters attitude that isn't exactly helping the community to unite and grow.
While I realize it is EGs tournament and suspect that their #1 goal isn't to make me happy is still feel it is a shame that trying to be as fair as possible isn't more important to them.
Oh well.. gogo dignitas!
There are numerous european tournaments that don't even invite NA players and it's quite understandable
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United Kingdom38149 Posts
I was excited, then I read there was 2v2. Still don't understand why people use it in team leagues when there's no incentive for the best pros to practice it regularly, and no teams have a dedicated 2v2 pairing signed up.
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On May 02 2011 17:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 17:07 IdrA wrote:On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 02 2011 13:57 Swixi wrote:
-edited-
I have absolutely nothing against TL, but the fact that you think your view of fairness is objectively the best is pretty gross. Sure, switching between servers is optimal when it benefits a good amount of people, but I don't think you can necessarily purport that as the absolute truth in this specific situation; it's easily up for debate. ... Explain how that is not the objectively fairest solution then? Option 1: Everyone plays on NA Option 2: EU vs NA 50/50 eu/na, EU vs KR 100% NA, NA vs KR 50/50 KR/NA How is this not more fair? I really dont understand why its fine for me to play in lag, but as soon as its proposed that NA players play half their games under the same conditions, its suddenly unfair? Why? On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it. its not impossible, but its really fucking hard, it makes for worse games, and it frustrates everyone involved. why should teams in a non korean tournament be forced to deal with that because of the one team that has players in korea? liquid chose to have players in korea, that means you are the ones who have to deal with the inconveniences it creates when competing in foreign events. If you ask us to play, why should we not ask for fair playing conditions?
you can ask all you want. im saying it would be bad for the league and you have no right to expect it.
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On May 02 2011 16:54 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 16:51 JJH777 wrote:
I don't understand weren't people getting banned for suggest lag affected TSL results? I thought it wasn't a big deal lol? Seems kind of hypocritical... Heres the thing: Is lag so bad that you cant win if you play from KR to NA? NO. Look at any FXOpen, every single one of them has been won by Koreans and the last one had an all-korean Top 4. Is it OPTIMAL to only play on NA when it would be fairer, and very possible logistically, to play half the games on KR, half on NA? No, it obviously isnt. I dont mind playing on the US that badly, I think its possible to play good still. But when its entirely possible to make the playing conditions more fair, and we offered to accomodate any team we play by providing accounts and so forth, then I dont feel that its right to not go the extra step and implement it.
I agree with you that it would be fairer and I also think any tourney that can feasibly alternate between servers should do so even if there is only one player from KR. I don't know all the work that goes into making a tourney like this happen but I don't see how it can be that inconvenient. However as far as I'm concerned TL is full of hypocrites now. People suggesting lag affected results were banned and flooded by negative responses. Then the very people who were completely downplaying the lag refuse to join a tourney for that very reason. This completely shows that TSL shouldn't be used by anyone to judge anything relating to player skill.
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EPT
