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On April 23 2011 15:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p Which SOTG was this and roughly when was it said? I want to pull an exact quote, not something somebody is remembering.
It's the latest SOTG, episode 35 I believe, its pretty early middle part of the episode, don't know exact time however.
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On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p
It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be.
Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize.
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On April 23 2011 15:39 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be. Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize.
No, I doubt you will admitt protoss being easier to play, regardless of what I tell you so I won't spend time on it.
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The ideal goal would be to leave the overall amount of stuff you have at any point unchanged, but remove the ability to have all of that stuff in your opponents mineral line at the 5 minute mark. If the army size remains the same across the warpgate nerf, then it really doesnt matter.
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On April 23 2011 15:44 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:39 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be. Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize. No, I doubt you will admitt protoss being easier to play, regardless of what I tell you so I won't spend time on it.
Why would you want me to admit something like that? LOL I am not a Pro so my take on who is easier holds no water.
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On April 23 2011 15:44 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:39 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be. Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize. No, I doubt you will admitt protoss being easier to play, regardless of what I tell you so I won't spend time on it.
Awesome cop out...the man calls you out on it and you say "nahhh, not gonna admit I made stuff out of my ass." He said he would admit he was wrong if you proved to be right, and instead of proving something(that should be easy to prove if you're correct) you bail.
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I really doubt that gateway cooldowns would ever be less than warpgate cooldowns. Warpgates are a major part of protoss in SC2, not just gameplay, but flavor as well. A major part of the way blizzard concepted them is the idea that they teleport onto the battlefield with small, elite, high technology armies.
What's more likely is that gateway build times end up as the same or maybe 1-2 seconds longer than warpgate cooldown, and the warpgate research time increases. This would make early game defense easier and warpgate reserach useful for positional advantage advantages without making it critical.
In a perfect world, the fact that you don't need to research warpgate right away would also make it possible to get a faster stargate and either get enough phoenix or void rays that it becomes possible to fight colossus pushes on even terms, leading to a broad mix of strategies.
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On April 23 2011 15:44 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:39 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be. Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize. No, I doubt you will admitt protoss being easier to play, regardless of what I tell you so I won't spend time on it.
lol dude don't put words in nony's mouth. He never said that protoss was easier and he never said that nerfs won't affect the race. He said that because protoss was winning tournaments that they are sticking to their bread and butter strategies instead of pushing forward with innovative new strategies that they have up their sleeve. Should protoss stop having success winning tournaments, they will stop doing those strategies and they'll start using some more innovative ones. I believe he did mention that if current strategies such as colo pushes got nerfed that protoss would be able to try out other styles that they haven't yet used in public and that they are not completely out of options, but either way I don't recall what he said being anything as extreme as what you wrote.
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I like PvP how it is now, even if it a constant 4gate battle, you can always play defensively and be ahead of your opponent.
I also don't want them messing with the timings as it will ruin my builds in my other matchups.
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I kinda like it and kinda don't. I don't like it because your opponent are aware of it and the possibility of a 4 gate is coming so opponent won't be that greedy especially against zerg. I like it because it gives more option on how to play PVP which everyone's hated match up.
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hopefully this doesnt make proxy gates unstoppable again
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On April 23 2011 15:44 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:39 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p It was Cruncher who was criticized and IIRC and he was criticized for having a boring style not being less skilled and winning because ezpz race. And again Tyler never said Protoss was easier to play as, I think either he and InControl said that what Cruncher did was not as easy as people were making it out to be. Again if you want to prove me wrong just tell me on what minute mark he said that protoss was the easy race and i will apologize. No, I doubt you will admitt protoss being easier to play, regardless of what I tell you so I won't spend time on it.
Skimming through, this is what ive heard so far in regards to protoss:
Initially, before interrupted by Anna:
"I will say, another thought on the topic is I think incontrol's ideal aggressive god protoss with constant pressure, we have those tools with warp prisms and blink stalkers... and they are hard to use because they require so much attention, ...we have all the tools but the problem is were not losing tournaments..."
day9: "please sit on cruncher style, stop innovating"
tyler: "... youre not gonna expect somebody like cruncher to experiment in the middle of a tournament" (interrupted by call)
Then later on: "I think that there are some new things that protoss can do, but since protoss is winning everything right now the top protoss arent trying it right now because the most profitable way to be a programer is to solidify the current style rather than trying something new"
incontrol: "youre looking at it the wrong way, were not doing them because when we do, blizzard takes it away from us... we are saving it."
An hour or so in, have heard nothing about it being easy... just that its winning tournaments at the moment.
EDIT: this is around 52 minutes in and a rough transcription, you can listen to it yourself to get the full detail, i just listened to it once trying to grab as much as i could
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What worries me though is that the cooldown of the normal gateways will be so long that you can't defend yourself early before warp tech is done. Hopefully Blizzard decreases the normal cooldown close to the warpgate cooldown. Then again the zealots might come out too fast and we will have another 2-3 normal gateway zealot rush fest like in the beta...
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When I first read this I thought it said they were increasing gateway T1 build times and decreasing warp tech time. I was like, "Are they moronic? How is that gonna help anything?" Luckily I read it again to make sure. Haha.
I think it is definitely an interesting concept. I wonder (as a primarily Z player) how this will effect the other matchups. This might let 4gate expo become a new thing since Toss will be able to cut probes later.
I want to mention that I thought the idea someone had of only allowing Warp Tech to be used in combination with Warp Prisms really intersting at first, but I wonder if that would make Toss unable to defend easily. Though I think we will be seeing (if this happens in the next patch) Gateways used longer. Hopefully they don't decrease the build of Zealots too much. 2Gateway Zealot Proxy would run rampant again. Since Cheesers seem to love Toss. :-/
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Any significant changes made to the early game, such as this, are going to change a lot of builds in the other matchups. 2 gate zealot pressure will be insanely hard for zerg to deal with again if they shorted zealot build time back to what it was, as well as early stalker pressures in pvz and pvt. I am not really in favor of making changes to the gateway build time at all, due to how much of an effect it can have positively and negatively on the other two matchups. Messing with warpgate research will only make timings that have finally been worked out for the last several months obsolete in the other matchups, and weaken the four gate in general against the other two races. It was't that strong to begin with, but the threat is not nearly as potent anymore. I really don't mind pvp at all, and would hate to see the game changed.
Balancing a mirror matchup? You gotta be fucking kidding me. There are ways to hold aggressive four gates, just like there are for other races. Blizzard keeps trying to force this myth of "the beloved long, macro games", but the matchup isn't broken. There is no one strat that is an automatic win, so why try and fix what isn't broken? 'Balancing' a matchup because it is "boring" sounds ridiculous. I find pvp challenging to play, and find it interesting to watch the intense micro battles that occur, and cleaver use of maps.
People are adapting, and constantly trying new things every day for pvp. I wish blizzard would just step back for a long period of time and let shit work itself out for once. I feel like they are trying too hard to appease the masses too quickly.
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they should just make it so that warpgate research comes in TWO upgrades
-the first being a regular warpgate but it only can warp in on even ground or lower and then adding an upgrade that costs like 25/25 or something cheap like that that takes 60 secs or so and allows warpgate to warp to different elevations
i think that would be better than messing around all these production times since it wouldn't change the balance of the game much against other races and youd have time for the other side protoss to mass up some tech to defend in pvp
in any case protoss needs some more uber upgrades to spend shit on since they got rid of templar amulet and void ray speed upgrades
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Without speculating on this specific "fix" since it can certainly change and was just an example of an idea, I think this is great because it shows that they're looking at the issue.
PvP has made me think about going back to Terran (not very seriously, but it's just not a very dynamic matchup and is quite boring to have to do). The only time I've ever thought, "Oh, sweet, a PvP game is on!" is maybe when KiWiKaKi is playing since those tend to be interesting at least half of the time.
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Well reduced gateway units build time may result that zerg can no longer get an expand first.
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The simplest change would be to move Warp Gate tech to the Twilight Council. The tech would come later, and higher on the tech tree, so the early 4-Gate wouldn't be just such a problem. It might also require a few tweaks like increased cost/build time, but just moving it one step higher on the tech tree would help a lot.
Decreasing build times on Stalkers and Sentries (but probably not Zealots to leave 2-Gate rushes, etc. alone) might also be a good idea in that case, in order to make up for the lack of defensive warp-in early on.
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wow i just won 4 pvps in a row! leave as is! lol
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EPT
