EPTPvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 38
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
Im not sure about the numbers as Im really not that good with timings in PvP especially, so take the 20 seconds with a grain of salt, but I think the idea is sound | ||
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lambchops
United States63 Posts
On April 23 2011 09:53 ELA wrote: I think Warpgate vs. Gateway should be a meaningful choice to Protoss and not just a must-get tech. Increase warpgate research and increase the transformation-time on Warpgate to maybe 20 seconds so that you would actually lose a fair bit of production time in the early game if you indeed choose to go warpgate compared to gateway. As a protoss player, if you're being pressured at the front and you just complete warp-gate tech, the 10 extra seconds can be the difference between losing the game, or holding the rush. as for all of the people talking about how 'enemy pylon fields should cancel each other out' what would happen if the opponent ran into your base and built pylons, limiting your defensive warp-in locations? while it may be good at defending the early game aggression, it can end up breaking the system later in the game. true it would stop the high ground warp in if placed correctly, but if you need to defend in your base and your warp-in field is negated only to a small corner, you are cornered and forced to warp into an un-winnable situation. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On April 23 2011 09:06 a176 wrote: You cannot seriously be trying to compare mutalisk control with 4gating, or even blink "micro". lol you've got to be kidding, i read this whole thread but this stuck out. Mutalisk micro is some of the most user friendly micro in the game. Seriously, zerg has it completely easy in terms of micro and the need for perfect unit control compared to both protoss and terran (terran imo requires the best control to get the most out of their units), your challenges are elsewhere. I MIGHT give you some leeway on the saying banelings take good control, but its no where near the control the terran needs to not lose everything to them. I've played protoss for a year now and I can tell you that it took protoss a LONG time to get the unit control necessary to assert itself in a competitive environment let alone just surviving the early game. Attacking players who used to abuse protoss players inability to use sentries etc earlier on in starcraft cant do it anymore because over time shit like sentry control and simming got better. Protoss players arent losing to the same shit they were losing to months ago. I really can't emphasize enough how much of a process it was for people to get better at the race. It was seriously frustrating losing games left and right to ling all-ins because we missed a forcefield by one unit square or let too much of a terran push get up the ramp. These threats still exist and toss players still lose to literally one slip up, the reason you think theyre so strong is they are making fewer mistakes now and have learned how crucial it is not to make them. I just get so sick of reading these (im guessing) diamond level zergs running around thinking they would be in masters or something if only they played another race. This game is hard. I can tell you if you're a diamond level zerg I can probably beat you silly with an offrace... hell even in a mirror matchup because the fact of the matter is if you're still in diamond, you need to stop complaining and do what all the protoss players that got decent did, find a way to stop failing. The zergs in my division have done it. They make up 40 fucking percent of my division. In the GSL this season+ Show Spoiler + the protoss so far are 5-11 against terrans and 5-4 against zergs. I thought this thread would be full of everyone rejoicing including the protoss players. I'm masters level protoss and I'm excited for the prospect of the changes. I hope it doesn't completely remove 4 gate aggression because it really doesnt benefit the game to completely remove a strategy, but I hope it controls it for PvP. I was hoping for a more creative solution, but anything to move PvP past the current state so we can discover if theres something beyond colossus in the mid-game. I believe the only reason colossus is the center of PvP midgame is because the lack of information causes both players to need AT LEAST 3 gates, where colossus will obviously perform well. Stargate builds have always been good if gone unpunished, but maybe this will make them harder to punish? | ||
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:12 lambchops wrote: As a protoss player, if you're being pressured at the front and you just complete warp-gate tech, the 10 extra seconds can be the difference between losing the game, or holding the rush. Yes, exactly - Hence the meaningful in the meaningful choice of going Warpgate right off the bat or not | ||
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Vathus
Canada404 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:14 Jayrod wrote: lol you've got to be kidding, i read this whole thread but this stuck out. Mutalisk micro is some of the most user friendly micro in the game. Seriously, zerg has it completely easy in terms of micro and the need for perfect unit control compared to both protoss and terran (terran imo requires the best control to get the most out of their units), your challenges are elsewhere. I MIGHT give you some leeway on the saying banelings take good control, but its no where near the control the terran needs to not lose everything to them. I've played protoss for a year now and I can tell you that it took protoss a LONG time to get the unit control necessary to assert itself in a competitive environment let alone just surviving the early game. Attacking players who used to abuse protoss players inability to use sentries etc earlier on in starcraft cant do it anymore because over time shit like sentry control and simming got better. Protoss players arent losing to the same shit they were losing to months ago. I really can't emphasize enough how much of a process it was for people to get better at the race. It was seriously frustrating losing games left and right to ling all-ins because we missed a forcefield by one unit square or let too much of a terran push get up the ramp. These threats still exist and toss players still lose to literally one slip up, the reason you think theyre so strong is they are making fewer mistakes now and have learned how crucial it is not to make them. I just get so sick of reading these (im guessing) diamond level zergs running around thinking they would be in masters or something if only they played another race. This game is hard. I can tell you if you're a diamond level zerg I can probably beat you silly with an offrace... hell even in a mirror matchup because the fact of the matter is if you're still in diamond, you need to stop complaining and do what all the protoss players that got decent did, find a way to stop failing. The zergs in my division have done it. They make up 40 fucking percent of my division. In the GSL this season+ Show Spoiler + the protoss so far are 5-11 against terrans and 5-4 against zergs. I thought this thread would be full of everyone rejoicing including the protoss players. I'm masters level protoss and I'm excited for the prospect of the changes. I hope it doesn't completely remove 4 gate aggression because it really doesnt benefit the game to completely remove a strategy, but I hope it controls it for PvP. I was hoping for a more creative solution, but anything to move PvP past the current state so we can discover if theres something beyond colossus in the mid-game. I believe the only reason colossus is the center of PvP midgame is because the lack of information causes both players to need AT LEAST 3 gates, where colossus will obviously perform well. Stargate builds have always been good if gone unpunished, but maybe this will make them harder to punish? I think he was trying to compare the bw muta control not the sc2 muta >.> | ||
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
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Ottoxlol
735 Posts
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Ranga
United States5 Posts
With Z v Z for example, after pool, you could opt for a faster lair to tech, or roaches for pressure, banelings for defense against zergling harass, spine crawlers for turtling, and various mixes of droning for all these depending on how you want play it out. There are options. In T V T, one could opt for a marine push with stim, without stim, with marauders, without, 1 rax expand, tech to tanks, tech to medivacs, BF hellion drops, banshees, etc. again, options. But because if you don't get warpgates in P V P fast, because of the lack of rush distance, your opponent can just come effing kill you, there are no real options early on except get warpgate and warpgate units and either defend or kill him. Once the "oh gosh are we having another nine minute game feeling dies away after around 8:30, protoss has to grab his expansion and start getting colossi because what else in the protoss tech tree accentuates all these warpgate units i made to not die than colossi? Thus, if the 4 warpgate doesn't end the game at 9 minutes, the two colossus balls ramming together will. In essence, the capability of the four warpgate to end P v P quick narrows the variety of avenues that protoss can go down when facing another protoss. Instead of nerfing the warpgate by increasing it's buildtime, which would do nothing, Blizzard is extending to players the possibility of not having to defend against the four gate so hard, opening up other avenues of tech/ expanding. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:31 Ottoxlol wrote: just buff probes to reflect stalker shots. sounds good to me | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On April 23 2011 09:26 travis wrote: what does that mean? lol controlling mutas and lings is micro but controlling zealots and stalkers isn't? or that one takes skill and the other doesn't? have u ever watched mc 4gate another protoss who also goes 4gate but mc runs him over anyways? you've been here for a very long time, and you're trying to tell me that controlling several control groups worth of muta and scourge, the control required for mutalisk micro and dodging scourge, and macroing without mbs, is about the same as warping in zealots and pressing b on damaged stalkers? you sound as if you've never actually watched a zvz during your tenure here. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On April 23 2011 06:54 Icx wrote: Quick question for the higher-level players here: Let's take a favourable map for defending a 4 gate. Why is it that 3 gate robo isn't a reliable counter to it? (well I guess it isn't because you don't see it a lot, or it isn't seen as "the" build to counter 4gates, people seem to actually prefer the stalker rush, etc) Because even outside of TL there is a lot of discussion going on about it, and I was just wondering about that. It's because Immortals can be a liability in small numbers against Zealot heavy compositions. Stalkers can still dance around the Immortal and snipe their Stalker/Zealots. Stalkers can also focus fire the Immortal pretty quickly. You're going to be down hundreds of minerals and some gas when 4 gate hits with no real tech advantage. There's nothing in the metagame that reliably counters 4 Gate, only half-assed solutions like stopping the Probe. so the safest build is 4 gate. The safest transition in a stalemate is to switch to 1 base Colossus. Then whoever all-ins wins. Pretty much every GSL PvP is won by the competent player who follows this. | ||
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ELA
Denmark4608 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:41 a176 wrote: you've been here for a very long time, and you're trying to tell me that controlling several control groups worth of muta and scourge, the control required for mutalisk micro and dodging scourge, and macroing without mbs, is about the same as warping in zealots and pressing b on damaged stalkers? you sound as if you've never actually watched a zvz during your tenure here. In his defense, nobody has mentioned Broodwar in this thread so far - This thread is a discussion of the change to Warpgate tech in Starcraft 2. If you bring up Mutalisk micro which is present in both games, one would assume that you were talking about mutalisk micro in Starcraft 2, since we're in the Starcraft 2 forum and discussing a change to Protoss warpgate tech in Starcraft 2, no? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:41 a176 wrote: you've been here for a very long time, and you're trying to tell me that controlling several control groups worth of muta and scourge, the control required for mutalisk micro and dodging scourge, and macroing without mbs, is about the same as warping in zealots and pressing b on damaged stalkers? you sound as if you've never actually watched a zvz during your tenure here. He compared it to just muta control. You are making things way more difficult and complex simply by throwing in scourge because the control possibilities suddenly increase dramatically. Also, zerg macro without MBS isnt that much more difficult in BW.... 8sm9sm0sm wasnt too difficult. I would nearly argue that current zerg macro is harder than BW zerg macro. Also, simplifying one end and making the other end more complex visually through words is not exactly a good practice. "You mean kicking a ball into a net is about the same as dribbling a ball down the court, passing to teammates, avoiding getting stolen then managing to jump over somebody with a solid timing or fake and shoot the ball into the hoop before the timer on the playclock expires?" No, doesnt work that way. You simplify one, you keep the other simple. "You mean kicking a ball into a net is about the same as shooting a ball into a hoop?" Yes. Thats how it should be. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:41 a176 wrote: you've been here for a very long time, and you're trying to tell me that controlling several control groups worth of muta and scourge, the control required for mutalisk micro and dodging scourge, and macroing without mbs, is about the same as warping in zealots and pressing b on damaged stalkers? you sound as if you've never actually watched a zvz during your tenure here. You should be banned for strawmanning an argument. This is a SC2 forum. Why do you come in and start talking about mbs/scourge/muta-micro when its not even remotely relevant tot he same degree? The level of mechanics required in BW is incomparable to SC2. BW PvP had other things to spend their APM on, reaver drops, storm drops, we just rarely see PvPs in BW since there's not that many Toss players to start with. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On April 23 2011 10:46 ELA wrote: In his defense, nobody has mentioned Broodwar in this thread so far On April 23 2011 10:54 Griffith` wrote: You should be banned for strawmanning an argument. This is a SC2 forum. Why do you come in and start talking about mbs/scourge/muta-micro when its not even remotely relevant tot he same degree? please read the entire quote, thanks! On April 23 2011 10:51 TheRabidDeer wrote: He compared it to just muta control. You are making things way more difficult and complex simply by throwing in scourge because the control possibilities suddenly increase dramatically The poster was insinuating in-general that zvz in bw is as "boring/retarded" as pvp in sc2, which is a completely wrong statement. i am trying to illustrate what goes on in that zvz, that while unit diversity is seemingly simple, the amount of control required to excel in the matchup far outweighs that required in pvp sc2. I'm not just throwing in scourge for kicks either; muta and scourge are part of the matchup just as much as zealots and stalkers are. Dodging and killing scourge, while controlling your own scourge and muta groups (max 12 units), is miles beyond simply selecting stalkers and blinking them backwards and why you cannot even begin to compare the matchups, let alone label zvz in bw as 'retarded'. | ||
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meltingmykohchoo
166 Posts
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Smurphy
United States374 Posts
I play for fun. PvP isn't fun. Maybe I should simply not play it. I think if this type of attitude towards a matchup is widespread then change should be strongly considered by Blizzard. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On April 23 2011 11:10 a176 wrote: please read the entire quote, thanks! The poster was insinuating in-general that zvz in bw is as "boring/retarded" as pvp in sc2, which is a completely wrong statement. i am trying to illustrate what goes on in that zvz, that while unit diversity is seemingly simple, the amount of control required to excel in the matchup far outweighs that required in pvp sc2. I'm not just throwing in scourge for kicks either; muta and scourge are part of the matchup just as much as zealots and stalkers are. Dodging and killing scourge, while controlling your own scourge and muta groups (max 12 units), is miles beyond simply selecting stalkers and blinking them backwards and why you cannot even begin to compare the matchups, let alone label zvz in bw as 'retarded'. Few problems though 1) Air control is entirely different than ground control. Air control you dont have to manage any unit other than the one you want to move away. Bringing in scourge only changes the dynamics of it because of how dangerous scourge are. If such a unit existed in PvP it would be the same thing (though the delicacy of 4wg some may argue that such a thing exists on a volley basis). 2) In terms of zealot and stalker control, it is probably just as difficult as muta/scourge control, especially as people get better at unit control as time goes on. Unit control in a wg situation is more difficult because of the fact that they are ground units and you DO NOT have blink. Saying people are doing 4wg rushes with blink just illustrates your ignorance of the situation. Moving ground units around and dodging your own units to avoid damage is actually pretty difficult at times. Then there is also the issue of attack speed timing. 3) Stop bringing up the 12 unit max thing, in the ZvZ situation you describe it is usually pretty manageable with the first 6-7 hotkeys. It is only slightly more difficult and you are just trying to exaggerate the fact. You are also still not using a comparable comparison. You are over-simplifying one and over-complicating the other. That is not a valid way to argue something, it just makes you look stupid to people that are actually paying attention. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
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