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On April 23 2011 11:10 a176 wrote:
The poster was insinuating in-general that zvz in bw is as "boring/retarded" as pvp in sc2, which is a completely wrong statement. i am trying to illustrate what goes on in that zvz, that while unit diversity is seemingly simple, the amount of control required to excel in the matchup far outweighs that required in pvp sc2.
I'm not just throwing in scourge for kicks either; muta and scourge are part of the matchup just as much as zealots and stalkers are. Dodging and killing scourge, while controlling your own scourge and muta groups (max 12 units), is miles beyond simply selecting stalkers and blinking them backwards and why you cannot even begin to compare the matchups, let alone label zvz in bw as 'retarded'.
How boring/retarded it is had nothing to do with what I was saying. I was just saying that the matches have similar dynamics, the necessary styles of play are the same.
As for the micro being "easier" or "harder", that means nothing to me. Once you are proficient enough to outmicro a 1a attack, how "hard" the micro will be is completely based upon how well your opponent micros. That's how the whole game works. How "hard" the game is is based upon how well your opponent plays.
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On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech!
This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta.
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On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta.
This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/
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On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta.
O.o the last few patches have seen some fairly significant Protoss buffs...aside from the templar change. But that came along with a nerf to Emp and to Stim.
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On April 23 2011 12:22 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. O.o the last few patches have seen some fairly significant Protoss buffs...aside from the templar change. But that came along with a nerf to Emp and to Stim.
There have been buffs to Protoss in several patches (Phoenix build time, etc), but almost every patch has had a Protoss Nerf. It was going on as a running joke for awhile, that it wasn't a legit Blizzard Patch without a nerf to Protoss.
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On April 23 2011 12:26 Bananasword01 wrote:
Hrm, so 4 gate is going to be weaker but at the same time 6 gate will become incredibly powerful.
Honestly guys protoss defense in the early game can just be upheld by limiting warp in to pylons in an area near the nexus. If warp gates need to be defensively strong then just nerf their offensive power.
If protoss want to warp near my base then they should use warp prisms.
But don't you see that this limits Protoss aggression options early, and hell, no less making you invest in a Robotics Facility (Pigeon holing into Robotics even further, to simply use warpgates no less) to even have to be able to do what they can do now.
It would just encourage mass turtling in PvP, since if you have "defensive warpgates" and offensive warpgates don't exist, you would be a damn fool to attack, since you couldn't reinforce your attack in any reasonable amount of time, you would simply lose.
A reasonable Buff to Warp Prisms would be pretty cool, so they could see a little more use in higher level play.
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In a way, this is going to be a nerf for the 4 gate, but a buff to the 6 gate. Means there will still be trouble for Zergs, 6 gate doesn't work that well against terran. So the overall winners here is pvp and TvP? I guess Z don't have to worry about that super early aggression. But then again we all don't know how nerfed warp gate time is getting.
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I think a more logical solution would be to make the warp gate cooldowns all like 10 seconds longer than the standard gateway cooldown, that way protosses could only warp in reinforcements if they felt it was worth the extra cool down. I find the insta warp in mechanic kind of bland, and definitely makes protoss a lot more forgiving than the other races.
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The most logical progression would be to leave it as it is and wait for the players to try new things.
With 9 matchups at least 1 will be retarded and any change to how warpgates work will change a lot for the other matchups.
Its nice to see that Blizzard cares about how "fun" or "watchable" a matchup is but IMO they should only step up when there is something seriously broken. Of course if they find an elegant solution that makes 4gates less strong in PvP without affecting the other matchups or affecting how mechanics work I can support it.
Travis has made a lot of good points but after all Blizzard is like a clumsy guy during sex. They will go in, hard and after they are done nobody will know wtf happened.
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First post on TL.
i'm a protoss player, and honetsly after every patch of nerfs i am getting tired of having to relearn the race.
i played in beta and i was around when the 2gate zealot/chrono strat was popular, and then blizz nerfed it. (along came 4gate)
but that wasnt enough, no then they made high templars useless, nerfed archon toilet which was a legit synergy strat.
now they want to kill 4gate.
i dont even see why this change is necessary... PvP is fine, its about 4gate vs counter, if blizzard makes changes about everyones QQ, then i think everyone should start being outrageous like QQ about 15 hatch, and QQ about orbital commands.
this game really pisses me off sometimes.
wait let me rephrase that last part, this game's DESIGNERS really piss me off sometimes.
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you kinda lost my interest when you said archon toilet was balanced...
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On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/
Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options."
Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then go out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything.
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On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything.
No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working
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but the only reason why protoss are winning is because there's more of us than say zerg.
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This makes me proud to be a Protoss that does not use four gate, I would very much so welcome this change 
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On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working
Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p
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i'm not a 4gater either, but it will impact the rest of our builds. which is why im mad, cause blizz just never ceases to stop swinging the nerf bat at toss.
nevertheless more zerg buffs and stupid shit.
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I just don't understand how this is supposed not to affect other PvZ and PvT... Can anyone please enlighten me on this?
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On April 23 2011 15:22 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 15:18 windsupernova wrote:On April 23 2011 15:15 Integra wrote:On April 23 2011 12:21 Mercury- wrote:On April 23 2011 12:16 DreamSailor wrote:On April 23 2011 11:52 Mitchlew wrote:
I love how blizzard deliver nerfs now. We have a gift to you protoss players, we are nerfing your warp gate tech! This is no different than any other patch. Protoss has been nerfed nearly every patch since beta. This should tell you something about how wrong the whole race is :/ Even liquid'tyler admitted on the latest SOTG how easy protoss is:"Since protoss seems to be winning every tournament the nerfs won't matter much, there is also a ton of stuff that Protoss as a race still can do, So I'm not worried, it's not like we are out of options." Protoss will see more nerfs. There is no reason to as why a Protoss can sit his ass and only defends until 3 bases and then goe out with a big deathball and just roll everything. Or the fact that you can simply 4-5 warpgate and win everything. No, he never said that Protoss were easier. Stop pretending that he did say that. The only true thing about your post is that he and inc said that Protoss still had a few tricks to use in case what they are doing stops working Yes they did, They even criticed another protoss player, dont remember what his name was for winning by doing the exact "wait for 3 bases and then attack and instant win" bullshit I just descriped above. Incontrol even said he really wished that the protoss player wouldn't had won with it. I'm not going to refere to IdrA though, he rages all the time, so that's to be expected :p
Which SOTG was this and roughly when was it said? I want to pull an exact quote, not something somebody is remembering.
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EPT
