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On April 23 2011 07:06 Fungal Growth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 06:54 Icx wrote:
Quick question for the higher-level players here:
Let's take a favourable map for defending a 4 gate.
Why is it that 3 gate robo isn't a reliable counter to it?
(well I guess it isn't because you don't see it a lot, or it isn't seen as "the" build to counter 4gates, people seem to actually prefer the stalker rush, etc)
Because even outside of TL there is a lot of discussion going on about it, and I was just wondering about that. Not one of those players but the answer is simple...you need a critical mass of immortals to flatten out the joint cost of the robo facility and this takes too long against say a 6 minute 4gate. RF takes about a minute to construct and cost 200/100...this is too much dead time and dead resources not defending attacking stalkers and zealots. Factor in the build time of immortals is about a minute per unit and the math just doesn't add up. Plus immortals aren't THAT much better than stalkers... They cost about 2x the stalker and probably are 4x the stalker in battle but when you factor in their joint cost/build time/slow speed/dps wasted on overkill/inability to hit air...they're tough to justify in PvP (or any other matchup for that matter).
Immortals aren't as good as reavers during that period of play. The reaver really is the perfect transitional unit. It's insanely effective during that time of the game but the micro requirements are such that templars become more effective later on.
Stalkers can still easily overpower immortals in small numbers.
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holy shit. are they actually gonna make gateway production faster than warpgates?!?! this is fuckin huge, people have been clamouring for this change for a long time. this will make protoss macro way more interesting since players will now have to decide (or at least have the option to) switch between gateway and warpgate or have a specific mix of both. can't wait to see what blizzard comes up with.
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I really hope they change the warp gate mechanic and make it so that the actual "warping in" of the units takes longer depending how far the unit is being warped in from the warpgate. The current mechanic negates defenders advantage and that's been causing problems in all match ups because you have to be ready to defend such a strong attack. Defenders in PvP will get the advantage that their units will warp in faster than the guy attacking.
Another issue that they are overlooking is the lack of information after the 4 gate vs 4 gate. Its almost impossible to tell what tech each player decides to choose after the 4 gate battle, resulting in this rock paper scissor situation. Getting hallucination to scouts sets you back so badly, because not only do you have to spend 100 gas on the research, you have to use another 100 gas to get the sentry. Since in PvP, both players usually sit on one base for an extended period of time, halluncination scouting is just too expensive.
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I think it would be cool if warpgates weren't a necessity like they are now and top protosses switched back and forth between warps and ways.
Warpgates for when you are attacking. They have longer wait times, but the time you save from not having to walk those units across the map, makes it worth it.
Gateways, for when you are defending/turtling. They have shorter wait times, but if you attack your opponent without switching to warpgates, you end up getting units to the battle slower.
I think this would help PvP too in that unless you have a good advantage, you are very unlikely to succeed in killing your opponent with a warpgate rush, as they will have gateways that outproduce your army. Skill ceiling would be raised as a result as pros would have to figure out when and when not to switch gates, which is always a good thing.
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On April 23 2011 07:18 da_head wrote:
holy shit. are they actually gonna make gateway production faster than warpgates?!?! this is fuckin huge, people have been clamouring for this change for a long time. this will make protoss macro way more interesting since players will now have to decide (or at least have the option to) switch between gateway and warpgate or have a specific mix of both. can't wait to see what blizzard comes up with.
No, they said they were going to reduce the build time on gateway units, not make them faster then warpgates. If they took 10+ seconds off the build time of zealots/stalkers/sentries all at once the game would be massively screwed up.
They just need to allow a macro-oriented build to have a chance against 4 gate.
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On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns?
I somehow doubt they would go this far, but it's certainly a possibility. Currently there's a 10 game seconds difference between the time it takes for a warpgate to go off CD and Gateway production so they could make it equal giving a player who doesn't 4 gate and chrono his research at less of a deficit in units.
However you also get one free Cycle when you transform into warpgates (well somewhat free)... I'm a little curious as to what they hope to change with this... Since 4 gate is still relatively speaking impossible to reliably scout in pvp. Or how much longer of research time.
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I dont like it, to be honest i would prefer them to do something about canon rush.
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Seriously, can somebody explain why the 1 gate robo +1 gate day9 build doesnt work against 4 gate? Because it is working brilliantly for me. You should have 2 zealots and an immortal at around 5:45 with warpgates done, which means you can get 2 more zealots in shortly thereafter and a 2nd immortal done by about 6:20. You can pretty easily stall the WG rush with those zealots and the immortal until the 2nd one is out, then you have 2 immortals AND a couple zealots and should be perfectly fine, then the 3rd gate thats building kicks in and you can get a sentry out and are able to FF the ramp and be secure with a tech and eco advantage.
Maybe other people arent executing the build right? I doubt this is the case, but its what I am beginning to wonder.
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So instead of 4gating imma go 1gas 2 gate into expansion and get a 2base 6warpagates with +1 upgrades?
My point is that a warpgate is a very powerful tech cuz it nullifies high grounds and distances. It is also broken because you don't even need a pylon if you use Prisms effectively.
oh and beware of proxy gating!
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What they should do first is implement a defender's advantage. If a unit attacks you from above, you should be able to see that and get a shot off - with a miss % chance to hit or not (like in BW). See how that changes things, and then we can look at other options.
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Please let this nerf come sooner, rather than later.
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On April 23 2011 07:36 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Seriously, can somebody explain why the 1 gate robo +1 gate day9 build doesnt work against 4 gate? Because it is working brilliantly for me. You should have 2 zealots and an immortal at around 5:45 with warpgates done, which means you can get 2 more zealots in shortly thereafter and a 2nd immortal done by about 6:20. You can pretty easily stall the WG rush with those zealots and the immortal until the 2nd one is out, then you have 2 immortals AND a couple zealots and should be perfectly fine, then the 3rd gate thats building kicks in and you can get a sentry out and are able to FF the ramp and be secure with a tech and eco advantage.
Maybe other people arent executing the build right? I doubt this is the case, but its what I am beginning to wonder.
You don't have sentries nor do you have the production to stop someone who 4-gates out pure zealots, so unless your opponent makes stalkers for some reason you just die.
Furthermore, because you don't get any stalkers you have no ability to stop scouting so its very easy for your opponent to read the situation and just run up your ramp with 6-7 zealots (+4 more almost instantly) rather than the usual 5 stalkers + zealot.
At least thats been my experience, I'm only low masters so I could be wrong.
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IDK why everyone loves the idea of having it take longer to warp units in the further away they are from the Nexus. Its a stupid idea and its makes things overcomplicated.
As Toss you shouldn't have to choose whether you should or shouldn't stay on GW or WG. Warpgates are a unique aspect of the race and the mechanics can't be altered too much without really changing all the GW units or other MU's. Blizzard stated they don't want to change the other MU's but just help PVP.
Blizzard WANTS protoss players to use WG and for that reason they will not make a change that makes it better to stick on gateways all game long...
Kind of likes its a no brainier to get stim, concussive and shields as terran if your sticking bio all game long...
Frankly I like it that way.......
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Maybe not 4 gate, but I feel like the PvP would still be a 3gate+robo vs 3gate+blink or something like that. Not much of a chance for a very macro heavy long game. Just the nature of the matchup I guess. I do admit that I like the matchup since it is a lot more micro based. A good change of pace from the heavy macro games I play against Z and T.
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On April 23 2011 02:27 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 02:04 masterbreti wrote:
this sucks tbh. How else will i get into masters without my 4 gate. sucks for those of us stuck in a crappy league and have only our 4 gate to get us out. Hope this does not change protoss chesse potential.
maybe will have to get good at cannon rushes T_T Uh..what? "Sucks for those of us stuck in a crappy league?" I'm not trying to be a jerk but you should practice P's incredibly powerful timings within a macro setting. 4 gating into Masters is a shallow path and you'll get decimated once you arrive if that's all you have (unless you've got the timing and control of White Ra...doubtful). You're in a crappy league because you're not good enough to get promoted out of it, 4 gate or not. Your answer is practice / analysis / tutorial....not 4 gate. On topic: as a Z, I feel like proxy gate shenanigans will become viable again, which isn't a bad thing in my opinion. I'd rather defend that with good scouting than get hit with a deadly 5-6 gate timing. "Just made a round of drones, looking goo--oh shit, toss is pushing out at weird timing."
I was sorta joking. I don't 4 gate every 1v1 i play (but laddering i do)
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 23 2011 07:21 recklessfire wrote:
I really hope they change the warp gate mechanic and make it so that the actual "warping in" of the units takes longer depending how far the unit is being warped in from the warpgate. The current mechanic negates defenders advantage and that's been causing problems in all match ups because you have to be ready to defend such a strong attack. Defenders in PvP will get the advantage that their units will warp in faster than the guy attacking.
Another issue that they are overlooking is the lack of information after the 4 gate vs 4 gate. Its almost impossible to tell what tech each player decides to choose after the 4 gate battle, resulting in this rock paper scissor situation. Getting hallucination to scouts sets you back so badly, because not only do you have to spend 100 gas on the research, you have to use another 100 gas to get the sentry. Since in PvP, both players usually sit on one base for an extended period of time, halluncination scouting is just too expensive.
Best suggestion 
Reducing built time of gateway will only encourage proxy 2gate, and 2gatestalkers rush.
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I made this exact suggestion a month ago. Glad to see they know what they are doing.
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I've been wondering since the start of the beta why warpgates have smaller cooldown that normal gateways. If it's the other way around there will be a lot of interesting mechanics, like turning some gates into warpgates while leaving some at normal mode. Or transforming back and forth between the warp gate modes. At the current state of warp gates the transform back to "normal" gateway ability is nearly completely useless.
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Reading this thread makes me sad. People are talking about using a warp prism instead of a pylon for a 4gate- that is not the problematic type 4 gate... If you lose to this your doing it wrong.
Theres a lot of T and Z players commenting on the PVP matchup.
THE problem with PvP is that there is no defenders advantage. Against T and Z you can tech up behind sentry forcefields pretty easily early game until your tech is out. In pvp if you place a pylon close to the ramp you can run up to the ramp to gain vision of the mid ramp and then warp in on the ramp above the forcefield. This is THE main issue.
Remove ramp warp in, and theres no easy way for the toss to get up the ramp and they will be crushed by tech sooner or later...
Sure probes can sneak pylons inside the base etc but that is the defenders fault.
Altering tier 1 unit timings drastically alters the game just fix this one issue and see how pvp sorts itself out, my guess is that in high levels 4 gate will be non viable against small ramp maps...
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My preferred nerf would be:
- Units can only warp around a nexus. The radius would be similar to the sensor tower's.
- Warp prisms can warp in everywhere but now cost 250 minerals.
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EPT
