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On March 20 2011 00:11 Decessus wrote:
* FFs should cost 75 energy:
- Each sentry would be able to cast 2 FFs at most, instead of 4.
- Sentries wouldn't be warped with the ability to cast FFs, which result in an endless offensive ramp blocking which, in my view, is stupid.
- Protoss would die to a lot of early aggression, this would have to be addressed.
- My sugestion is that, somehow, sentries warped inside your base would be able to spawn with 75 energy. Or maybe that sentries from gateways could have 75 starting energy, while warped ones only 50. This would still be a defensive nerf overall, but wouldn't be the end of sentries.
Thoughts? Please do not bash me. I'm only expressing an opinion.
- How can toss handle early aggression if you nerf sentries? Make gateway units stronger? Which inherently increases the power of the 4gate.
- Roughly 0% of the games at high level are normal gateways being used. If you suggest warping in 3 warpgates and 1 normal gate, it totally screws up the toss mechanics. For what? To nerf a skill that is quite difficult to pull of? I don't know if you play toss or not, but good FF's aren't as easy to pull off as you think.
- The endless FF at enemy ramp can only happen if you have 4+ sentries. Those things die insanely fast in direct encounters due to the range and shoddy HP. Warping in new sentries mean less firepower overall and heft gas sink.
- Higher energy cost is just not good at all. Sentries already cost a shitload of gas while doing bad dps to a lot of units.
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On March 20 2011 00:11 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc. i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
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What if sentries did 4 damage instead of 6? Zoning and splitting is the major problem with forcefields, but it's necessary due to the vulnerability of Protoss in early game. Reducing the damage done by sentries would at least reduce the effectiveness of delayed 4gate and 6gate pushes that have mass amounts of sentries with little stalker/zealot support.
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I like the idea of massive queens, its something I've never thought of before but could really help zerg deal with these ridiculous 8~ sentry midgame pushes. That said with decent creepspread (as in ALL THE WAY TO THEIR BASE) I can't help but feel that zerg should be meeting these big pushes as close to their base as possible and doing little pick offs / fake attacks on the ball to burn energy on sentries before it gets too late. That said I'd like to see how changing queens to massive changed these midgame pushes, whether it'd be too much or too little to even matter.
Either something like this or making forcefield an ability (ala 250mm cannon) and giving sentries their 2 damage back seems to make a lot of sense if you ask me, though I'm by no means a "pro".
Oh and my "whining" has very little to do with MC himself, its more to do with playing / watching PvZ as an overall matchup, I don't know how anyone can say forcefields haven't been incredibly strong for months and months when they have basically led to PvZ being the most depressing matchup, I mean I even enjoy watching mirrors over a forcefield ridden PvZ.
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On March 20 2011 00:19 maybenexttime wrote:
Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
What do you think, guys?
The problem is if they start with only 50 energy, 3rax terrans will win 95+% vs protoss. Then if sentries were let to store up energy, offensive ramp blocks would be like 5x more effective than before. The best idea I've seen is OP's idea (increase energy requirement for FF and increase sentry starting energy)
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I think the real solution to the problem is giving forcefield a cooldown. That way they retain their offensive usefulness, but at the same time their placement actually matters and you can no longer just cast FFs semi randomly and win.
Although, I'd also beg to look at this the other way around. MC and ONLY MC has been able to successfully abuse sentries in this way. Huk's build is not nearly as powerful or well executed, as seen in code A. No one else has been able to pull this kind of push off this effectively, which also speaks volumes of how powerful a player MC is. Otherwise everyone would do this, which doesn't happen.
Also, I'd like to repeat something that Tyler said in SotG. When things like these happened in BW, the community, in particular this community, set out to find strategies that would counter the new kid on the block. When this happens on the SC2 community, they set out on a quest for blizz to rebalance the game, or more like a whining quest. I truly believe this strategies are beatable and very skill-dependant. I don't know. I remember BW and I can't help but imagine the gigantic shit threads it's spells would produce. I mean, plague???, Reavers??, Siege tanks??, Cracklings?? Effin DARK SWARM ANYONE??. Those skills, and particularly the latter one, were grossly overpowered, Dark swarm is actually a crazy skill terran can hardly even counter if well used. Hell, defilers even insta-regen energy for endless swarms.
I'd like threads to discuss STRATEGY around these world-shattering events. MC totally outplayed July, outside of any forcefield balance discussions.
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On March 20 2011 00:22 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:11 mahnini wrote:On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc. i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields. It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7.
There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy.
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On March 20 2011 00:23 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:19 maybenexttime wrote:
Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
What do you think, guys? The problem is if they start with only 50 energy, 3rax terrans will win 95+% vs protoss. Then if sentries were let to store up energy, offensive ramp blocks would be like 5x more effective than before. The best idea I've seen is OP's idea (increase energy requirement for FF and increase sentry starting energy)
Like I said, if it turns out P can't deal with earlygame pressure, Sentry's starting energy would get increased.
What do you mean by storing energy? Never said anything like that. ;o
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People complaing for the almost abusive use of ff from MC must really need to see the other pros out there. Why? To realise the fact than MC's is seriusly a total beast.
No other protoss play nearly like him, i bet that July can rape any other P on earth, but MC make it look so easy that seems unfair.
I agree that the matches MC plays look boring, even as a toss player. But i really think is not a balance problem, as i said before, I've never seen other protoss won with such superiority "a la MC", he´s not even close to the other P's, he is the first "Flash" of the Sc2 generation.
And for the record, P's live and die with ff. Good ff's may win games, but bad ff placement, means you're dead. Still, i think in some time pros will raise their level reaching MC's actual level and beyond, and we will have to see if better level from other races pros can deal with this ff abuse, or it will have to be rebalanced.
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Watching a protoss kill the zerg natural while 10 roaches sit at the top of the ramp really bugs me.
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Let's also note the LACK of high ground advantage, specifically no miss-rate %. For zergs that like to 3 RR into mass speed ling, bringing in an overlord gives them vision of high ground and that can spell GG to your buildings trying to block. Without forcefields, weak gateway units would die even more quickly. It's not necessarily the FF that's at fault, it's the weak gateway units that need it.
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On March 20 2011 00:11 Rashid wrote:
Ive been reading the OP's words and ive been thinking..
1) how about giving sentrys a limited set of FFs? like 1 or 2 for each? maybe its nerfing them too hard...?
2) how about making FF an upgrade? like erm conc shell?
3) how about giving FF a cooldown? longer? I think this is better.
combining 2 and 3 is a good theory imo... how about you guys?
I don't think those 3 are good fixes to FF, especially no. 3, since that would mean EMP would not work on them.
I meant they still cost energy but also have a cooldown 
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If a protoss builds 7-10 sentries in the early game that's a giant investment, it delays tech, and the sentries are not all that great by themselves they're a support unit. The problem as I see it is that zerg is very limited in being able to punish protoss for doing this. Terran can do early pokes and try to get the protoss to waste forcefields or they can fast tech to ghost but what is zerg's response short of doing some kind of ling all-inish play? I don't really know.
Aquanda's mass ling build with lots of little ling pokes would probably be the best bet but if the protoss micros well and protects the sentries that won't work. A burrowed roach rush seems like a good idea because detection will be delayed but it's very common for the protoss to drop a forge for the quick +1 and then make a cannon or two which negates that. Burrowed roaches are still probably needed though to circumvent this. If the protoss techs to observer that's less gateway units that they'll have.
Another issue here is the variety of things that protoss can do to zerg from their fe with lots of sentries position. Are they going to go two stargate, are they going to go colossus or make a bunch of immortals, are they going to do what mc mainly did today which is go mass gateway, they can tech to blink, dt, or hts too. Zerg really has to be on the ball scouting and preparing pretty exacting counters. It's just a tough position to be in and I hope that zerg is able to do more to solve it soon.
I wouldn't really be opposed to forcefields costing 75 mana with sentries starting at 75 mana (forcefields are needed in the early game, particularly against terran ramp busting aggression with mm). The ability to walk into the zerg base and cast like 7 forcefields in a row on the ramp as well as forcefielding the army like we saw in g1 of mc july was a bit ridiculous.
Buffing hydras would help a lot too (when have we heard that before lol). With range 7 it's a lot harder to forcefield them to the point that they won't do anything, range 4 roaches isn't nearly as hard. Increase their speed please lol.
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On March 20 2011 00:26 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:22 Xahhk wrote:On March 20 2011 00:11 mahnini wrote:On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc. i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields. It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7. There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy.
He needed to do a double scout on the expansion. Why talk about zerg all-inning? Though MC cancelled as the thing was nearing completion, that was more MC winning out in the mind games than the entire match being utterly impossible.
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It's so funny all this comes up now suddenly when oGsMC becomes the GSL 5 Champion! Before it hasn't really been all that much about this but it often comes in periods.
It's a essential need for the protoss army to be able to use forcefields.
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it came allready up before... u hear zergs everywhere complain about the state of zvp... something needs to be done, lets hope the infestor buff is move in the right direction
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Guys, I am a 3200 SEA , 3500 NA random player. I do not want to be bias to any race but as a player who've played both Zerg and Protoss, I wish to clarify some issues with fellow TL'ers.
First, Forcefield IS indeed too strong a spell. But does that mean it is imbalanced? Maybe. The key in its strength is versatility. Defensively, forcefields ARE required by the protoss to tech up to a comfortable position against Terrans.Forcefields are so strong because of its ability to dissect an entire army.
Many trolls QQ about gateway units being weak, but in fact, it is not the case. In realistic scenarios, DPS per unit area is much more important and stalkers being the tanks they are deal the maximum DPS per unit area over an extended battle due to most of them surviving. Many people often often misconceive that the deathball is strong because of the colossus, but in fact, a stalker ball is one of the strongest armies in SC2. 6 range heavy hp benefits most realistic scenarios. Couple that with sentries splitting effective army size and decreasing DPS per unit area of other races through force field placement.
I have played Protoss against zergs countless times and it is INDEED hard to perfect forcefield placement. BUT is perfect placement really needed? Most times, with a stalker ball, and 6 gate sentry push, I dictate where my battles take place. I set the rules of engagement and positioning of enemy. It doesn't matter whether the zerg has a good arc or a bigger army, all i do is section the front most portion and destroy the enemy part by part.
I really like the Protoss race as it is unique, but guys, Protoss players especially, please admit that forcefield is too versatile of a spell. It prevents repair, it dissects any army which does not have its counters, it prevents reinforcements, prevents scouting, harass and allows the game flow to be controlled by the Protoss. I play Terran and find that Protoss does need defense against early marine marauder pressure, but don't you think forcefield should be more punishing to its user?
IMO, Forcefield should be changed to a spell which can only be placed on empty hexes. It disallows army splitting and rewards planned play. It would also not allow a player like JulyZerg, who saw the push coming from afar to be helpless in reinforcement. July could then use Zergling micro on the ramp to prevent forcefield placement. It becomes a more fair micro battle for both players. One player can then try to deny forcefield placement and the other would have to seek opportunities. Starcraft should be a game which rewards planning and not instant decisions. Warp in is already instant defence and reinforcement. comeon guys, lets not be defensive of our races and admit a tweak to forcefield would result in a better metagame in the future.
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On March 20 2011 00:33 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:26 kaisr wrote:On March 20 2011 00:22 Xahhk wrote:On March 20 2011 00:11 mahnini wrote:On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc. i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields. It's the fact that people just reduce the entire series to one ability that they don't like on the ladder. If July had played better in first and last game, would we still be talking about this to this degree? Don't say FF made the first and 5th game impossible, because those losses were clearly preventable, and would have put July up 3 to 3 and would become a full bo7. There was almost no way July could have reasonably defended in the first game without deciding to all in MC's nexus. You have to realize, zerg can't randomly throw down 4 spine crawlers or build a crap ton of units in early game without falling severely behind in economy. He needed to do a double scout on the expansion. Why talk about zerg all-inning? Though MC cancelled as the thing was nearing completion, that was more MC winning out in the mind games than the entire match being utterly impossible.
Agree here.
July had sufficent enough defense (even with godly Forcefields against him) to hold against MCs attack.....had it actually been the attack July was expecting.
Cancelling Nexus gave MC enough ressources to just push his push (queue in Xzibit) to overwhelm July.
There is no doubt in my mind that July could have easily defended any push as long as he knew what was coming, but MC one-upped him by simply tricking him.
It is similar to when Idra lost on Lost Temple to...some Protoss? Where Idra scouts a Robo bay in the center of the guys base while half across the map, the guy made Void rays and won.
Mind games, trickery, magic etc is a part of BW and this game. It can work against you (if your opponent scouts it) but it can also pay off, in this series it paid off.
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On March 19 2011 23:15 BGrael wrote:
Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
Perhaps if it gets transfused the FF will dissapear then terran has a chance witch medivacs with some good micro to get rid of it as well.
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This is the thing about forcefields. It makes or breaks your army. If you have bad/none forcefields you lose early and mid game. Gateway units are so weak once people start getting upgrades thats why forcefields are necessary. They are a little strong at times that we can see but nerfing FF's could make gateway units weaker n it becomes a big yellow snowball
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EPT
