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On March 19 2011 22:30 TrANCE, wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:15 ProtossPenny wrote:
If Gateway units were as good as stimmed marines and marauders then sure take FF away. But the fact of the matter is that without it, kite and stim would spell every TvP game. Your answer on the second reply... just to add and PvZ how would you deal with mass roach mid game? When you play Toss for more than five minutes you realise that if you didn't have ff you'd be sat in you base until 200/200 without ever being able to take a third Forcefields are a powerful weapon in the Toss arsenal in my opinion they are needed and i come from being a zerg player where i've lost countless time to spam forcefields on my ramp whilst they wipeout my nat then dance away but it always was my fault for being out of position. Most people can't see where they went wrong and lets go complain about forcefields instead of playing the game and working out how not to get owned by forcefields. If their are changes to be made they will make them intime but they wont/shouldn't be taking advice from the 99.9% of TL lurkers that believe they are in someway of the skill/level to be making threads because they got raped by Johnny Protoss in diamond yes me included...
But the problem here, and with the whole protoss arsenal, is that protoss is balanced around these possibly imbalanced units. Maybe they are, maybe they are not, but it is certainly a high possibility witch makes the P very hard to balance. You cant nerf anything in t1 since then they suck, and you cant buff them since then warpgate make them to powerful in the early game. And the t1 unis suck late game so the t3 units must be super strong.
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Gateway units are in general more costly than the early units of both zerg and terran, and they also lose in a straight up battle. The only reason toss can get on par is with forcefields.
Sure, get rid of forcefields, just make sure you make stalkers cost 75/25 and remove stim/conc shells as well.
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Force Fields are perfectly fine.
Whining that you can't get roaches with burrow before 6 gate with 12 sentries come is ridiculous.
Protoss spent 1200 gas on sentries only + stalkers, and zerg cant get lair+burrow in time?
This whole drama after GSL finals is just pathetic.
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On March 19 2011 22:09 mathemagician1986 wrote:
burrow at hatchery tech is a terrible idea. Picture ZvZ: I get 4 banelings in his mineral line. He runs his drones away, I burrow and he cannot mine again for ages! GG right there.
I think if Queens had the ability to destroy forcefields ZvP would become much more interesting. There no offensive use for this that I can think of, but Z could deny constant ramp blocks and even start sacrificing queens in order to get into good army positions. Losing queens carelessly will still punish the zerg though, because his production after will be reduced. I think it would be great, it encourages micro and doesn't seem to hard on P, while leaving TvP totally untouched.
He could morph banes and explode them over your burrowed banes to take care of that  .
I think allowing queens to break FF's would be kind of silly aswell. As a zerg FFs do make me rage sometimes, but I think they are pretty much okay. July could have tried bating some ffs out and trying not to engage/ use burrow more effectively to counter MC's play. All in all if force fields really are broken I wouldn't want blizz to make changes just based on one series of games ._. .
If Protoss completely dominates zerg for like a month maybe then they could look into it, but I prefer to see what zergs can come up with before that to counter this kinds of plays.
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On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote:
Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects:
a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields.
b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Huge_Queen
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On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by.
I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series.
Nobody here is even remotely close to MC's level of understanding the game as it is now. How can you possibly know, that there is no way, that this build can be countered? You guys cannot or do not want to even try to think about that. Hell, just nerf the damn thing, so we don't have to worry about that.
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On March 19 2011 22:50 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by.
I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta. So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series.
No, he's saying that Blizzard should nerf something because it is overpowered and people are only now starting to tap into its overpowered-ness.
Now granted, I don't believe FF is OP myself (though simply making them into something you can kill would probably help the game). But that's what he's saying.
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I always felt that forcefields appeared way too early in the game for such a battlefield changing ability. The Arbiter's statis field in BW radically changes the enemies unit makeup during a big battle, however it doesn't appear so early, and when it finally does the user doesn't just spam it, he has to really think about where it's used. I feel that that is how the sentry's FF should be.
Of course, getting rid of it altogether would be preferable, but if we got rid of everything that I felt wasn't right in sc2 (creep, roaches, concussive shells, warp ins, etc) we'd be back to BW, so.... :D
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On March 19 2011 22:14 Immanis wrote:
what about if FF is researched? Would that be an adequate solution? As will provide some solution but im not sure how that will play out vs Terran
By the time the research would finish the sentries would be stocked with energy so it would make no difference to late game forcefields.
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I don't think FF's should be nerfed. I do believe that in the future you will see ways around FF abusing plays. However I do feel that making the Queen massive so they can stomp down FF's would really help the Zerg when a Protoss is in his natural, giving the Zerg some what of a defenders advantage.
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On March 19 2011 23:02 NicolBolas wrote:No, he's saying that Blizzard should nerf something because it is overpowered and people are only now starting to tap into its overpowered-ness.
Actually, I think he is. The first part of my post was more of a rhetorical nature, albeit not being a question.
The fact of the matter is, we do not know, if it is or isn't OP. It has already been established, that Blizzard doesn't balance the game around the top 10 or 5% of players. But somehow, people think it's a good idea to go even further and base their decision on one guy playing another.
That is wrong on so many levels.
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Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
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On March 19 2011 23:15 BGrael wrote:
Queens destroying Force Fields (as a spell) or maybe also by moving through them is a great idea I think. That would increase the needed micro and also the viewing pleasure greatly. I mean, think about it. You see a Protoss push, some of the roaches get trapped, but then the Queen comes and denies forcefields. A great Protoss player could deny the Queen with more forcefields (in case of a spell) or target fire the Queen (in case of queen = massive). This would create the sort of back and forth micro thats sometimes missing in SC2. And if destroying a forcefield costs some mana, using force field destruction would also be costly for the zerg. I think destroying forcefields in form of a spell would be really a good idea. What do you think?
A great idea. But it shouldn't require Queen collision to destroy the FF. An attack or 2 from the queen should be able to destroy. Protoss will have to dispatch the queens before abusing FF. And we might see more queen used offensively by Zerg.
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On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly. Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often. I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.
Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas.
Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145.
It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength.
Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not.
I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.
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This is a huge part of the problem of Blizzard's balancing policy, and the knee-jerk reactions to every strategy ever don't help. Nerfing the immediate problem instead of dealing with the solution.
5-rax reaper was good not because it was overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Pylons/cannons blocking ramp was good not because it was overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Bunker rushing is good not because it's overpowered, but because Zerg lacks early game defense. Most people only see the strategy as OP and yell, "nerf, I can't deal with it!" without realizing that if Zerg's early game defense was buffed in some way, all of these strategies would be legitimate tactics Z could deal with without breaking the game.
Think about what you're asking: by Blizzard immediately nerfing everything, you're removing the step where players develop solutions to problems and the game and skill cap grows. Nothing may even need to be buffed--the solution could be right there. Do you honestly think that July lost, not because of the decisions he made, but because force fields are OP? Do you honestly think there is nothing that July could have easily done, like get burrow, that could have changed the tide of the game? Do you honestly think that drastic balance changes that haven't been brought up for months should be considered because of the results of one game?
With these types of community reactions to good strategies and the way Blizzard's responding to them (by seemingly nerfing everything that people complain about), it scares me to think of what the game's going to be like in a year or two. A-move into each other with no micro because spells are OP. I'd much rather play a slightly imbalanced game with a ton of strategies and tactics than a perfectly balanced game with next to none.
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i'm not going to touch on the subject of whether or not forcefields are balanced because for such a pivotal spell i don't have anywhere close to the necessary skill to comment. however, i would like to say that it feels completely out of place in a game like sc2.
forcefields are the only spell in the game that will literally change the terrain, it can turn an attack into a decent sized choke into an attack into a 1 unit sized choke in less than a second. it can turn a well setup flank into a one sided attack with only half the initial unit amount.
that in and of itself is not bad, what is bad is that it requires almost no sacrifice from the protoss player and it is completely unavoidable by the other player. you can plant a forcefield anywhere you want on the map within seconds. so not only can it change and block terrain it can split armies in whatever way you can imagine. this makes attacking into a sentry heavy army a 100% commitment or guaranteed losses. a unit that can force engagements is an EXTREMELY powerful asset to have in an army, it makes you the initiator and, thus, gives you control of the game flow.
another thing about changing the terrain is that it can block ramps. initially in beta, and perhaps still true now, protoss was dependant on this for early defense against aggression. the thing about this is it's a completely dumb mechanic. it removes a huge portion of early game aggression because you can just ff a ramp or cut armies in half on the ramp. early game ultra aggressive play is dead because of the forcefield. and the idea that you can attack into someone's natural and forcefield their ramp while their reinforceing units have nothing to do but sit there while the nat dies is really dumb. some would say it's easily preventable by just not letting the sentry get in range, but there are about 101 ways to get a sentry in range of a ramp and only one way to stop it.
the other thing that i find frustrating both to watch and play against is that there is absolutely nothing you can do against forcefields except a) as terran emp and prevent them or b) as zerg burrow roach under them. in sc1 spells that hindered unit effectiveness (all spells in general actually), as opposed to just killing them, require a ton of tech or skill to use. things like ensnare were barely used and darkswarm is comparatively hard to use and infrequently used compared to forcefields. there's no interaction needed to use forcefield or fight against it. when an army attacks you, you either block it or split it in half at your whim. when you get forcefielded you either run or commit. there's no such thing as dodging / blocking a forcefield because obviously you can't it just pushes you out of the way and there's no such thing as a truly impressive forcefield because the spell is so easy to use and spammable and you can literally place it anywhere you want.
i think even with all the gripes i have with the spell the worst thing about it is that it ruins the initiation and climax of battles. i mean you watch two armies position against each other vying for map control and choosing areas of engagements carefully and when you finally see the armies advancing towards each other there's that moment of OMFG WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN and then 5 forcefields go off blocking half the other guys army and it's completely anticlimactic and stupid to watch. it's like if someone were to walk towards you with a giant ice cream sundae and at the very last moment throw it at your brand new shoes. i hate forcefields.
i don't have any well thought out solutions for this but i think any good solution would require more player interaction in both placing the forcefield and dealing with them.
i mean take for example psi storm in sc1. the first cast is important but not pivotal what is important is your second cast, that's the moment when the two players are closest to directly interacting, where is he storming next where will he dodge to? in that brief moment of player interaction we see some semblance of skill, this is almost never seen with forcefields and, honestly, is hard to find in sc2 in general.
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Of course, getting rid of it altogether would be preferable
Protoss would lose every match to early Terran aggression if FF were removed. I dont mean lose most games vs Terran, i mean lose every game vs Terran.
You need to understand that cost for cost, Gateway units without FF are the worst of the 3 races. MM easily beats Gateway early, as does Ling/Roach (without Sentry) this was done on purpose so that Protoss would play slightly different and rely on a early caster/dps unit like the Sentry.
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Dont forget that July expanded and droned quite alot, without a big defense he shouldnt be able to stop a 1 base attack from any race, it is how the game works.
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On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win
Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming.
In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive.
They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game.
Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense.
Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways  ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get.
/rant off.
I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed."
Yikes!
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The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later.
You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything.
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EPT
