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On March 19 2011 23:44 Annq wrote:Show nested quote +
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later. You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything.
You cannot stop a 1 base Protoss who cuts Probes with 2 half finished Spine Crawlers a few Roaches and Lings, it does not work that way.
July made plenty of mistakes, whereas MC made none in that game, he perfectly tricked July into thinking his own push was weaker than it really was.
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banelings pretty much counter sentries
I seen Losira and Idra use it
Baiting force fields with mass banelings and speedlings then back off
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On March 19 2011 23:50 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:44 Annq wrote:
The main reason July lost first game was because he was tricked by MC, mind*****, whatever you want to call it. Had July known about the cancelled Nexus 20 seconds earlier as it happened (if he had a Overlord see it). 3-4 extra spines would have gone up and finished, changing the match entirely.
Sry thats ridiculous. From my point of view, Juli almost played perfectly. You can't blame him for seeing the Nexus cancel 20 seconds later. You are not able to win as a Zerg against a Protoss player if he knows when to engage and when to macro. Forcefield just destroys everything. You cannot stop a 1 base Protoss who cuts Probes with 2 half finished Spine Crawlers a few Roaches and Lings, it does not work that way. July made plenty of mistakes, whereas MC made none in that game, he perfectly tricked July into thinking his own push was weaker than it really was.
July already made drones because of expansion, what he gonna do cancel those eggs and waste larvae. Spines take 50 sec to build, July just wasn't prepared. He knows Mc's style but his response was a bit late
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Ive been reading the OP's words and ive been thinking..
1) how about giving sentrys a limited set of FFs? like 1 or 2 for each? maybe its nerfing them too hard...?
2) how about making FF an upgrade? like erm conc shell?
3) how about giving FF a cooldown? longer? I think this is better.
combining 2 and 3 is a good theory imo... how about you guys?
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Well make the Queen massive could help but it will make phoenix harrass almost impossible... I still prefer to make the FF a channeling spell...
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On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming. In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive. They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game. Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense. Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways  ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get. /rant off. I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed." Yikes!
You're acting as if:
-Sentries aren't expensive, and mass sentries aren't really expensive
-Sentries aren't really fragile
-Investing in drops doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry"
-Investing in burrow/tunneling doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry"
-Cost-for-cost arguments are ever valid, ignoring the fact that the cost of 400/350 gas is less gas than 4 sentries.
You're just dismissing a bunch of valid options because it's, "unfair you have to work that hard," which is only hurting yourself--pro Zerg players seem to be able to cope fine. Instead you're asking Blizzard to patch and make you a solution when the solution could be right in front of you.
Why do people think it's valid to watch one set between two players and think, "Something needs to be done about this." Would it be the same if MC won with mass blink stalkers, or mass carriers, or really early zealot pressure?
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I only saw the first game from the finals, so I don't know how 'broken' FF's are in the other games. But let me tell you. MC could've EASILY lost that game if july didn't drone that much or if his attack came 10seconds later due to the spines. FF's are very fragile and are only deadly in hands of near perfect micro. Hammering about balance changes is the LAST option people should reach out to when faced with a problem. The likelyhood of Blizz changing FF based on on set is near impossible.
Many of the changes proposed are very silly and people are often missing the point entirely. 1 FF per sentry? Sentries Channeling FF's? You do understand that they cost a whopping 100gas right? It delays tech insanely and they barely scratch.
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In general, people need to stop asking Blizzard to fix things they can't find an immediate solution to, because that's not how a good game will develop in the long run. It's insane that because of one game, over 4 threads have been made about "Force Fields being OP?" and not many people considered that July lost because of his own mistakes and not because of the ability.
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Just an idea here.. But what if 2 banelings could break 1 FF? Think about what that would do for the early/mid/late game.
In the early game, toss wouldn't be able to just say "sry gai im techin, you ain't gettin in any time soon", and just go about his business with 0 fears.
In 4-6 gate pushes, banes would cause the toss to have a harder time simply ruining our ability to re-enforce, and killing our dps that our already super short range units have.
It would make the whole 5 sentry 5 zealot early expand thing alot harder on toss, as they couldn't just FF their way to turtleville anymore. They'd have to actually defend their expansion like terrans and zergs do.
and in the late game with death balls, they wouldn't be this wall of death that moves and can't be dented. Force fields would still be used to soak damage, but it wouldn't make them invulnerable to ground forces anymore.
Toss would actually have to become the micro race once again in zvp if this change went through, and not the turtle into a deathball race anymore.
Just sayin.
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This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
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On March 20 2011 00:03 [Avarice] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. You're kidding. We are not talking about late game here, bling drops would be a viable option for that. Even burrow roaches cost a huge amount of gas and mins (250/250+150/100 for lair) to counter FF's. By that time almost any toss will have crushed your natural or have an obs anyways unless he's going dt's or stargate, which will also crush roaches or your eco as overseers cost 150/100(still teching to bling drops eh?^^). Furthermore it's not like Z can afford to rush to infestors, which btw are fucking huge-ass sized with neon colors saying "kill me", when the early P push is coming. In General, the whole concept of the P and Z races seems to be flawed. P needs FF's against T but they will crush Z. Z on the other hand has just a bunch of generic units , which in itself are not bad but just bland without any synergy effects like e.g. T's MMM with stim and concussive. They have the worst building in the game, the useless nydus worm (only usuable for a quick supply network for the whopping price of 200/200 +100/100) and the worst harrass abilities after the early game. Their scouting abilities suck and require 100x more micro than pushing "X"c+minimap or invisible obs. Z overall feels crippled, as in you have to do 1000x more shit than your opponent to cut even, while one little mistake costs you the game even in lower leagues. They are the least rewarding race and the most unforgiving race while there's no way to truly punish P or T without being all-in early game. Oh yeah, and you cannot wall off while not having the ability to break a wall-off cost efficently.(Where's the fucking lurker??) As any of this would make any sense. Also Protoss late game synergy effects are off the charts.Collosus/storm/force field decimates anything on the ground. T tier 3 is decent( well, T doesn't need tier 3 to win anyways ) while Z tier 3 just sucks monkey balls and takes aeons to get. /rant off. I don't know if FF's are OP in general but they are one huge pain in the ass for Z players. Something has to be done imho, but not to Protoss but to Zerg.Hope Blizzard doesn't pull a retarded move again like: "Stimmed marines are too deadly, lets increase bunker build time and BC movement speed." Yikes! You're acting as if: -Sentries aren't expensive, and mass sentries aren't really expensive -Sentries aren't really fragile -Investing in drops doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Investing in burrow/tunneling doesn't have way more uses than "countering sentry" -Cost-for-cost arguments are ever valid, ignoring the fact that the cost of 400/350 gas is less gas than 4 sentries. You're just dismissing a bunch of valid options because it's, "unfair you have to work that hard," which is only hurting yourself--pro Zerg players seem to be able to cope fine. Instead you're asking Blizzard to patch and make you a solution when the solution could be right in front of you. Why do people think it's valid to watch one set between two players and think, "Something needs to be done about this." Would it be the same if MC won with mass blink stalkers, or mass carriers, or really early zealot pressure?
Baneling drops are good vs. sentries but that's not a solution. Protoss has a lot of different all-ins and timings with sentries - you can't have baneling bombs ready in time usually. And it doesn't have much to do with the discussion itself, because people are talking how you can't micro against FFs - and banelings bombs just kills sentries, they do not help dealing with forcefields.
On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
Forget July vs. MC, everyone decent in masters knows how to make good forcefields and you cannot do anything about that. You don't need to be MC to drop FF on a ramp or choke.
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* FFs should cost 75 energy:
- Each sentry would be able to cast 2 FFs at most, instead of 4.
- Sentries wouldn't be warped with the ability to cast FFs, which result in an endless offensive ramp blocking which, in my view, is stupid.
- Protoss would die to a lot of early aggression, this would have to be addressed.
- My sugestion is that, somehow, sentries warped inside your base would be able to spawn with 75 energy. Or maybe that sentries from gateways could have 75 starting energy, while warped ones only 50. This would still be a defensive nerf overall, but wouldn't be the end of sentries.
Thoughts? Please do not bash me. I'm only expressing an opinion.
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On March 20 2011 00:08 Xahhk wrote:
This discussion is as bad as 4chan thread. So because one guy who none of you will ever meet on ladder, not even a player 1 percent as good, beat another player who you will also never meet you can claim that that warrants nerfs?
Not even that, the games didn't really come down to just the sentry, it was July not playing as smart, which resulted in no defense in the first game, no lair in that 4th game, fighting in a choke on Shakuras/hydras off creep, etc.
i don't think many people think that or at least i hope they don't. forcefields themselves played a large part in winning about 2 of those games but didn't completely win it for mc. i think it's the fact that those games accentuated how helpless you really are against well used forcefields.
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On March 19 2011 23:59 KrSuma wrote:
Ive been reading the OP's words and ive been thinking..
1) how about giving sentrys a limited set of FFs? like 1 or 2 for each? maybe its nerfing them too hard...?
2) how about making FF an upgrade? like erm conc shell?
3) how about giving FF a cooldown? longer? I think this is better.
combining 2 and 3 is a good theory imo... how about you guys?
I don't think those 3 are good fixes to FF, especially no. 3, since that would mean EMP would not work on them.
Personally, as a terran player, FFs are fine as it is, although i'd rather that Blizz get rid of FF entirely and in exchange heavily buff the zealot into a more threatening meatshield unit, like maybe give it +50 shields/hp more, add 20 damage, change speed to 2.5, and replace charge with cheaper leg enhancements that give permanent 3 speed or more, and maybe make them so that they have like 20% resistance to spells and abilities such as conc shells, fungal or storms.
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Queens smashing forcefields would make me a happy zerg
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On March 20 2011 00:02 Ingruz wrote:
Well make the Queen massive could help but it will make phoenix harrass almost impossible... I still prefer to make the FF a channeling spell...
channeling sounds also nice
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On March 19 2011 22:19 Elwar wrote:
I must have missed the avalanche of games recently where FFs completely ruined the match for there to be this much outrage. I only saw MC vs. July, surely people aren't basing all their opinions on one series?
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way.
Can people step back and say, whoa, its been eight months and nothing has changed since yesterday. Zergs are still taking games off protoss last I checked. Its not some urgent big deal, IF anything needs changing its only something small and Blizzard shouldn't be in any rush to get something rushed out, nor should anyone expect them to.
What you say makes no sense. The recent games gave light to a possible imbalance, that only very skilled players can pull off. Just because not everyone can do it doesnt mean the imbalance isnt there and shouldt be changed. And the only way you would actually realize the imbalance is there is when someone executes it.
Are you saying imbalances are good jsut because only skilled players can pull them off?
You're saying it's odd that people only complain about an imbalance after it was discovered? that seems pretty logical to me, im not sure why you'd complain about something which you didnt know exists.
Im not saying the forcefield is imbalanced, im merely wondering about your view on balance discussions.
Now to my thoughts on forcefield:
It takes good micro to pull off forcefield like that, to get yourself that advantage. But for a mechanic liek that to work you have to give the opponent to equally or better micro to counter it
example: vultures darting in and laying spidermines all around dragoons is hard, but a good spread can really pay off. likewise if the dragoons can run and focus individual mines to negate the advantage of the vultures. a micro vs micro battle, whoever is better wins.
forcefields dont have this. untill you get burrow movement, after the forcefields are cast you just lose a portion of your army, there is nothing you can do about it.
5 roaches fighting vs 10 stalkers, and then 5 roaches fighting vs 10 stalkers is almost the same as only encountering 5 roaches in the first place, what with the shield regen and advantage of greater numbers.
This is why i beliebe forcefields are broken, for the majority of players it's balanced simply because they cant pull off good forcefields, but at higher levels of play it can be imbalanced
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Here's what I posted in another thread. Hopefully mods don't find it redudant.
OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs. Additionally, more FFs means less firepower.
In case Protoss turns out to be unable to handle some early all-ins/pressure due to that change, Sentries would start with 150 or so energy.
What do you think, guys?
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On March 19 2011 22:31 Benjef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote:
Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects:
a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields.
b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Thats actually an amazing Idea. Would save Zerg early game to Phoenix / Void ray mix where there pretty much have no AA when you lift up there like 2-3 queens.
I'm not sure Zerg needs more help dealing with pheonix void ray (though I certainly do lose to it frequently).
However the idea of Queens breaking down FFs is amazing, especially considering how slow they are off creep. It adds a "defenders" advantage for Zerg on Creep without breaking the use of a sentry for defense or in the open map. It would also open up some micro opportunities for zerg with queens transfusing one another while they break down a FF wall for the army behind them which would make these engagements actually tense. It also makes early creep spread even more important.
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Did you really make another QQ thread? I honestly can't believe thisd is a topic of discussion ATM. Firstly, you stated a pro said in beta how force fields were the most broken thing in the game. Well, you neglected to mention how much more dps the sentries did in beta, and how much bigger the forcefield was. Forcefield is a needed component, much like concuss and stim, and ling speed etc. Please stop mkaing this qq thread with a different name.
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EPT
