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On March 20 2011 02:12 BoxedLunch wrote:
once again, SC community rushes to a snap judgment after one series. people constantly whine about force field not requiring skill, being OP, blah blah blah. MC outplayed July. hard. yes, his force fields were ridiculous, but there was plenty July could have done, like prepping for a ling backstab to punish sentries immobility. sentries are an investment. you are spending a ton of gas, banking on your micro being better than theirs. when you're as good as MC, you have no problem making that assumption. but at the same time, one misclick, and MC could lose those games. something that fickle doesn't sound OP to me
Try to view it from July's perspective. He knows MC is doing something tricky. But he has NO IDEA what because overlord scout denied by stalker and moves too slow anyway. He keeps ling probing to check on MC's units and expansion. He notices MC spending more on sentries which is what a defensive protoss player does anyway. He could gain no scouting information whereas his base is as open as a loose vag*na for MC to scout. Clear information disadvantage for him.
Second, July saw MC's push from the closest xel'naga tower cross the map. He lays down spine crawlers and begins producing units. When MC's units reach, spine is half done (lol?) and his first wave of units are done. Had he used lings to counter attack. MC could zealot warp into his 1 base choke and the game ends there. The thing is people don't see the lack of options a zerg player has and as a random player this disturbs me.
There are alot of issues involved. People say zerg is a reactive race. But how reactive can u be when u can't get a spine up in time when u see units slow walking cross map. Also, u have no idea what the opponent is doing due to lack of scouting options. U HAVE to assume a macro game and drone as much as possible because if MC does let the expansion get up, your f***ked. I hate whiners as well, but when backed with rationale and logic, I find it hard to disagree with
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I find the timing of these threads to be a bit odd. How is it that a series being predicted to be won by MC at a 75% clip is so shocking that it deserves ff imbalance threads when we all turn out to be right? The outcome of the gsl final has more to do with apm not being as much of a factor in star 2 and zerg being in it's current state then it has to do with ff.
(although I do like the queen massive buff as long as it can still kill a voidray 1v1)
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On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote:
There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient.
Very interesting idea and i do like it however, MC had 13 sentries at one point. That's still 13 FF at one time. Perhaps when a sentry dies his FF should disappear immediately...still not a great fix tho.
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On March 20 2011 02:23 [Avarice] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:01 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 20 2011 00:41 Captain Peabody wrote:
It's not that I don't understand the solution; it's that you haven't successfully established the problem.
Yes, FFs are strong; and yes, in certain situations, when microed absolutely perfectly (as MC did, and as other Protosses often fail to do) they become dominating...but this is a situation where I'm pretty darn confident that players will find a way around it. It's barely imbalanced to start with, and it is counterable.
The community is starting to rely way, way too much on Blizzard's balance team, to the point where it's getting to be a massive psychological crutch. Every single time any unit, ability, or race is used successfully in a way that appears dominating, we cry imba...whereas in BW, if an ability or a unit is used in an utterly dominating fashion, everyone shouts about how amazing it is and how good the player is. It's an utterly wrong-headed approach to take to balance, in my opinion.
Blizzard is not going to fix every part of the game for us; Blizzard is not going to make the game "fair." And it shouldn't try.
If there IS a problem, then it's up to US, the players, to solve it. And by solve it, I don't mean posting theorycrafted crap about how to alter the FF ability to make it "fair" when we're not Blizzard and have no way of implementing our untested ideas. Expending that same energy as players talking about the ability and how to counter it and deal with it is actually helpful...which is why almost no one is actually doing it.
And I find it amusing that directly after the finals we have two threads discussing how FF is imba and how to fix it. The community is just worried because MC stands as the pinnacle of protoss play. The general skill level of the community has and will be ever increasing. Saying that not everyone can use FF like MC is just naive because eventually more players will learn to do it after countless practice. It bothers them because FF is giving too much control to the protoss player. The protoss player can dictate whether your reinforcements are able to fight, whether you are able to attack him, split your army. The flow of the game is now up to the protoss to win or lose it. It has become such that an almost perfect player like MC will never botch and never lose. Thats the concern. As players get better, it will just get more evident. I am a random player and do not want to be as bias as to say forcefield has to be removed but it definitely has to be tweaked. It should not be able to be offensively splitting armies. Restrict its usage to being able to only place on empty hexes should solve the versatility issue. Is JulyZerg the pinnacle of Zerg play though? Was the set a perfect example of the best possible Protoss vs. the best possible Zerg? CaptainPeabody is completely right. People are using Blizzard's ability to patch things as a crutch and it's having major problems. Not only is nerfing things before any strategies have a chance to be fleshed out bad, but most people refuse to try new things to actually combat the problem. It's ridiculous that people are actually saying, "It's unfair we have to get to lair tech and burrow just to deal with forcefields," as if that's the only solution or that's even a ridiculous thing to do. It's the same way with the, "Ways to use High Templar after Patch 1.3," thread. Hardly anyone gave suggestions--people just complained that HTs are useless now, let's all go Colossi, no way to defend against Terran drops, EMP is OP, and a bunch of other whiny and honestly useless things. When new strategies are shown to be good by high level players, the next step is supposed to be where people figure out ways to deal with the strategies, adding more layers to the game. Not cry that it could be imbalanced and pre-emptively nerf it, reducing possible strategies. Yet, it's hard to even experiment with tactics to deal with good strategies if so many people complain, refuse to experiment, and rely on Blizzard for a "solution now" that only hurts the game in the long run.
I dare say July is a pretty damn good Zerg player. If you read my post above, you would have seen that July is pretty much out of options. Pretty much the only way he could win was a blind counter with mass roaches and zerglings hoping for a bust but ends up overpowering MC's push. We have to look at it objectively, Blizzard has dug themselves into a hole by designing such COOL but yet game breaking concepts. I do not want to argue BW vs SC2 but the skill level of MC and July is not that far apart that ROLFSTOMP should occur. In BW, even a lower S class player would have had a closer game against bisu for instance.
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I don't think anyone would make this kind of thread if the finals today had not shown a VERY obvious problem.
@the "counterwhiners" : yes, against T FF isnt a problem. It actually makes the match up quite entertaining.
However, seeing July not do any particular mistake yet get absolutely ripped off just makes you realise how broken it is vs Z. Z is outranged whatever unit composition they have pretty much (well, on a realistic level), and their units are also weaker individually. You split the army / cut reinforcement on an army that's already weaker and relies on reinforcements to win battles, you've pretty much won the game. Simple as that. Those games (and many before) were proof.
However, i'm absolutely LOVING Sirion's idea. Make Queens massive. Could probably fix ZvP entirely, really. You're brilliant man.
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I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
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On March 19 2011 22:50 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by.
I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta. So you're proposing, that Blizzard should nerf something, because it might become OP. It has been mentioned several times, that it was only one series. Nobody here is even remotely close to MC's level of understanding the game as it is now. How can you possibly know, that there is no way, that this build can be countered? You guys cannot or do not want to even try to think about that. Hell, just nerf the damn thing, so we don't have to worry about that.
No, I am saying that I expect they will nerf it eventually as more and more protoss players through practice and experimentation will become masters of FF. Most of them already use it good enough to turn hard battles into simple ones, but MC just roflstomped his way with them. There is no reason why other talented protoss cannot do the same.
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On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
+1, being able to warp in bad units everywhere still leaves you with bad units. Complaining about forcefields doesn't achieve much.
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On March 20 2011 00:45 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote:
Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects:
a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields.
b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
 You actually just balanced ZvP. I'm being 100% serious, fantastic idea man.
Yes I love this idea. Mass queen unconquerable!
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Force fields really are a problem and while yes protoss does need force fields early on to defend vs builds like 7 roach rush and mass marines or possibly proxy gates. The problem is when you get 5 or so sentry all with 100+ energy you can instantly control the flow of the battle at any location on the map. The main reason I stopped using marauders vs protoss even though marines get slaughtered by colo is that if the protoss puts up 3-4 good force fields when you attack you lose 1/3 to 1/2 your army without even being able to attack back. I think zergs have the same problem but in different ways. There is no easy fix for this imo because force fields existence is currently too much of a factor in protoss's game plan. What I expect to happen is for blizz to come up with a legit nerf for it and then 2 weeks before the patch take the changes back but leave the buff they gave in change of taking it out. More as usual I guess 
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United States7166 Posts
Arghhh this is driving me crazy
Everyone keeps focusing on the FF's when the only reason July kept losing was because he was going for the wrong things, in the wrong order. he kept going for hydras, either making them or making a blind hydra den and delaying Burrow or not getting it at all. It's really simple to stop all the attacks, you get roaches and burrow and that completely nullifies any amount of force field godliness whatever. Zerg simply does not have enough gas to go hydra den + overseer + burrow + roach speed all when lair finishes, you have to choose wisely and he kept choosing a blind hydra den when there were no signs of any air, instead of going burrow blindly, which is what you absolutely need to do unless you scout indications that he wont be doing a warpgate timing
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The problem is, if you take away forcefields, the toss army is dead in many situations. For example, forcefields are essential in holding off early Terran pushes. You take away forcefields, were as good as dead.
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On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
What is this I don't even... ultras? Are you serious?
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On March 19 2011 23:24 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly. Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by. I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often. I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta. Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas. Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145. It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength. Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not. I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.
Well that is all true, but roaches have less range them sentry+stalker. And FF lasts more then long enough for these 145 hp to mean nothing.
Actually the last game of finals sentries were only used for the first attacks that let MC get so far ahead that he could only win by using stalkers and zealots after that even with hydra on the other side.
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On March 20 2011 02:31 ket- wrote:
However, seeing July not do any particular mistake yet get absolutely ripped off just makes you realise how broken it is vs Z. Z is outranged whatever unit composition they have pretty much (well, on a realistic level), and their units are also weaker individually. You split the army / cut reinforcement on an army that's already weaker and relies on reinforcements to win battles, you've pretty much won the game. Simple as that. Those games (and many before) were proof.
Well July took a race currently believed to be the weakest at the pro level all the way to the finals in large part by never powering drones. He played it in a way that most people aren't playing it, he took some heat for "all-ins" but it was working better than current thought. Perhaps he thought MC was too good for this type of strategy (probly true) but I always cringe when I see the strategy that got you there being ditched (MKP s4).
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On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
What are you a Silver player? Yeah i'll rush ultra's next time i get 4 gated
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[QUOTE]On March 20 2011 02:36 -Archangel- wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2011 23:24 iChau wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2011 22:36 -Archangel- wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.[/QUOTE]
Yes he did. The problem is more and more protoss players are going to be using them like him as time goes by.
I seen this development all the way from the time I seen Nony easily defeat a zerg in a showmatch using only sentries. I was wondering all the time why pro gamers do not abuse mass sentry more often.
I think as time goes by they will get abused and sooner or later changed in some way. I remember pro zergs complaining about them all the way from beta.[/QUOTE]
Pro's don't abuse it because sentries cost 50 minerals and 100 gas.
Also, a sentry has a DPS of 6 and the roach has a DPS of 8. It doesn't seem that different, right? Now, think about it this way. The sentry has 80 HP. The roach has 145.
It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength.
Also, mass sentries delay all tech. Oh, and one more thing. If you cut even 1/4 of a cost-even roach army, they will destroy your sentries and get a bigger gain due to roaches being cheap, sentries not.
I was wondering all the time why players do not use common sense and reasoning more often.[/QUOTE]
I am wondering why all players do not realise that SC is not a 1+1 game. Just because a sentry < a roach does not mean a group of sentry < a group of roach. Have u ever considered DPS per unit area? If 8 sentries were to dissect 8 roaches such that only 2 roaches can hit at a time. Now tell me who wins then? Sentries are so strong because they dilute an army's worth. U have 200 food army, I have 100 food. I divide u such that u fight me 40 food a time. Guess who wins?
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On March 20 2011 02:31 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
I hate people who complain about forcefields. Build a single ultralisk or a thor and sorry forcefields. And to the guy who complains about warp in. Warp in is no good if the units that come out of there get beaten by Terran t1 and zerg t2. Even Hts can only let in one storm before they dies, which you can micro out of with ease. Warpgate units are rubbish and forcefields are a central part of Protoss gameplay. Get over it.
Uhm. What? I personally don't think force fields are overpowered (just because that's the way casters are supposed to work in general...) but suggesting ultralisks or something to "counter" forcefields is just ridiculous. Seriously, you do understand that sentries come way way way way way way before an ultralisk would ever pop out.
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Well, are forcefields really "broken"?
I mean, sure, it IS an amazing spell/ability, but lets take into consideration a couple things.
1. Blizzard has been working to remove imbalances in the game, and to make sure certain tactics aren't "broken". If forcefields were truly imbalanced, I think Blizzard would have nerfed/removed them by now.
2. Actual gameplay. If you watch high level games, you can see that players are finding ways to play against amazing FF's. If FF were a broken ability, Protoss would be the "broken" race, but seeing that they're not (despite the talk about the protoss "deathball" and whatnot), it's a very bold statement to say that FF is too good.
3. There are ways to stop sentries. They're not units without an effective counter; in fact, there are a lot of effective ways to stop them. Ignoring unit counters for a moment, you can always bait the sentries into setting up forcefields preemptively while you dodge them completely. If you're zerg, you can always get burrow (and burrow movement for roaches) to momentarily hide your army, and escape if you have a roach composition. Sure, burrowed roaches might get hit as they run away, but once you're no longer under FF's, you can unburrow and run freely. If the FF's blocked you in, theyre certainly going to block the protoss army in as well. If you're terran, you can use EMP which just destroys the effectiveness of sentries. There are just so many convenient ways to stop sentries.
I'm not saying FF isn't an amazing spell. I just dont think their effectiveness should be something to argue about because you can stop sentries rather well.
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"It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength."
Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix
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EPT
