EPTA thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 9
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tdh.
Denmark3 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On March 19 2011 21:07 shadowboxer wrote: + Show Spoiler + There's no way you honestly thought July was going to win. There wasn't a soul on the planet that did. On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game. A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents. I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes. Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine. Burrow movement? i mean you completely go under the forcefeild and july never even used burrow more than once last night even though mc never made a robo, and he also attacked with his units in a clump which is a mistake you cannot make against MC.... | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:48 Yamulo wrote: Burrow movement? i mean you completely go under the forcefeild and july never even used burrow more than once last night even though mc never made a robo, and he also attacked with his units in a clump which is a mistake you cannot make against MC.... 6 gate timings usually hit before you can get burrow movement (you'll usually only have speed and burrow). MC's timings were later, but he often opened with something like DT's for example, that through off July's timings | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
I totally would love to see that change happen. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On March 19 2011 21:54 Willes wrote: Just look at progames and compare expanding speed beetween P and Z, you know the answer, the P simply can safeexpand as fast as the Z can, because of FF. FF is a really great feature which makes the game fun to watch, but early FF combined with warpintech is just so strong in the earlygame. Z has hard times with trying to expand faster then the P, the 1st expand is pretty safe because of FF, and while expanding as fast Z the P can pressure alot because he isnt cutting eco, and all this results from FF and warpin. Suggestions to reduce this problem: - reduce the earlygame quantity of FF - higher techtime for FF - higher techtime for warpins mfg if that was the case i would 15 nexus every game.... NO july could have hatch firsted 90% of those games but he chose not too...... How can P nexus before a hatchery unless we go 15 nexus which i should tell you is probably the riskiest build on the planet..... I mean you saw how july knew exactly how to handle it with his hydra drop..... As for higher tech time for Forcefeild, i do not want to get all inned MORE by terran and this would certainly encourage it. | ||
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:45 Disarm22 wrote: "It doesn't matter how many forcefields you use, mass roaches > mass sentries. Also note that roaches, with the speed upgrade, destroys "mass sentries" even more. Note that the roach only costs 75 minerals and 25 gas, but it's that much more better in terms of strength." Yes all true but when you get your ramp constantly FF'd you simply cannot gain strength in numbers. And, no protoss is going to go pure sentry. there will always be stalkers and possibly some zealots in the mix So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment.. Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On March 19 2011 21:27 jeremysaint wrote: this is one of those subjects i wish the community could get a panel of expert opinion on. i think FF is totally broken, thought so in the beta, thought so now. i am also not a pro player, and i think my opinion is totally irrelevant. i might even be wrong. i am just not qualified to say whether at an expert level FF is broken because i am not an expert player. it would be awesome to have a discussion among experts on this subject. if there already has been such a discussion, i wish i could find it. barring that, i would love to hear viable counters to FF. i think julyzerg would probably also love to hear some viable counters to FF. ultra/baneling drop/burrow/broodlord/muta-based armies/not attacking head on and coming from multiple angles/forcing small battles all over the map/harassment style play | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:54 Disarm22 wrote: Any one who watched the finals has to agree to some extent that burrow movement would not have been enough what about crevasse? July lost most of his army just seconds before burrow finished then reinforced with 10 burrow roaches which was not going to be enough no matter what. If he didn't engage until burrow finished it woulda been different. | ||
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:58 andrewwiggin wrote: So think about the optimal reaction to a toss moving out against you with sentries. Perhaps keep your army on low ground only, hide army nearby not inside your base and trap them bw forces, be the aggressor and take the fight to a more open field forcing more ffield use and energy loss, research anti FF abilities like burrow if you see a very heavy sentry investment.. Seriously people. It's all about SCOUTING. Plain and simple. Anyone can beat anything when they know it's coming. LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
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bearhug
United States999 Posts
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Stiver
Canada285 Posts
Sorry, no graviton, no point. | ||
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dmillz
Canada270 Posts
I'm not combing through all the pages in this thread to check, so I hope this hasn't been mentioned...if so +1! What I think would be a good solution is to simply add HP to FF. A large amount would be good, maybe 500? It would require a lot of testing to find a balanced number. If people are finding this is too much of a nerf another possibility would be to have FF start with HP, say 500 again, then have an upgrade available that makes them invulnerable like they are now. | ||
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StateOfZerg
31 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:03 mmdmmd wrote: Maybe FF's design is not the problem here? It's the ability to easily cast unstoppable perfect surrounds. IMHO everything the smart casting AI doing now can be done with a bit of training, especially when we are talking about Pro training here. That is especially true. Forcefields are here to stay and they are a good concept. Thing is, its too perfect. We have to set limitations. No forcefields on units and buildings. That levels the playing fields between the races as the opponent can now counter forcefields with micro if its not done pre-emptively | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:02 Disarm22 wrote: LMAO July did scout and he did react. And gimme a break, Zerg cannot wall while T and P can. We cannot scout a 4 gate until you move out! Pls do not tell me to sac and overlord because no zerg can afford to do that at the 5 min mark. Lets say i do sac the overlord and i see the 4 gate but my overlord dies. Thats one less spine or slower upgrades Lol I wont give you a break. And it's called creative scouting. Keep a hidden drone in their base early, send normal drone to scout that player is expecting. Usually works for me. =/ . Use your hidden drone when necessary. | ||
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:08 andrewwiggin wrote: Lol I wont give you a break. And it's called creative scouting. Keep a hidden drone in their base early, send normal drone to scout that player is expecting. Usually works for me. =/ . Use your hidden drone when necessary. That won't work vs. MC. Or anyone decent for that matter... | ||
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clik
United States319 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:05 Stiver wrote: Making queens massive would fix FF, but kill stargate play. Sorry, no graviton, no point. You act as if killing Overlords and Drones doesn't have any sort of effect on the Zerg. | ||
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