Something that, if you knew it was coming, would be easy to stop, but, if it gets used on you when you are not prepared, then it kills you without you being able to do anything about it.

Kpyolysis32

553 Posts

January 10 2011 00:09 GMT

#22

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese

Already been defined, and what you said is actually not correct...

"Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted. "

THAT WAS DIFFICULT

Dali.

New Zealand689 Posts

January 10 2011 00:10 GMT

#23

In my opinion "cheese" is best defined as an early game strategy which sacrifices a standard economic development in favour of an aggressive attack with either an overwhelming number of units (4gate) or a specific key unit (voidray/banshee). Obviously there are distinct differences between certain strategies which appear similar. A 4 gate might cut probes at 20 where as another might be high pressure with the intent to expand behind.

Obviously any early game push comes with a certain level of risk and the level of that risk is indicative of its "cheesiness". Take a ZvZ example: player A FEs with roach to defend while player B masses speedlings and throws them at player A. Assume player A holds this push with minimal losses. Then we would say that he is very far ahead because: he was able to defend the push while maintaining a strong economy; and because ZvZ midgame is almost always Roach based, he already has a considerable roach lead and will begin investing in roach upgrades sooner. Player B took a large risk hoping that player A would not be prepared for his aggression.

This being the case, I would say that player B cheesed because he sacrificed economy for a strong early game push and because he fail, he is now very far behind and must either tech to a "cutesy" unit or hope his opponent messes up.

Alay

United States660 Posts

January 10 2011 00:24 GMT

#24

I classify cheese with two things:

1) It needs to be a mostly all-in strategy

2) It needs to rely on surprise to win

Mindflow

Korea (South)320 Posts

January 10 2011 00:33 GMT

#25

How do people claim 4gate is not a cheese......MADNESS!!!!

alphafuzard

United States1610 Posts

January 10 2011 00:55 GMT

#26

cheese is a term that has already been defined by the community (see liquipedia)
making your own "personal definitions" just hurts discussion

if there is no word for an idea you are trying to express, then make your own word, don't mutilate an existing term

Chill

Calgary25990 Posts

January 10 2011 01:10 GMT

#27

Both of your examples are cheese, making this thread kind of dumb

gulati

United States2241 Posts

January 10 2011 01:11 GMT

#28

OP: If you are serious, then you are beyond confused about what SC is. Cheese has... nothing to do with holes. Or, whatever the hell you want to call it. Cheese is against standard play, and it is deadly because it is a surprise, just like a flank attack in real life combat.

There is no need to give your "interpretations" of cheese. It was defined many, many years ago, and is across the board the same.

Some examples of cheese: 6pool, cloaked banshee rush, cannon rushing.

So yes. Cannon rushing is cheese (the argument you opened with). That is not defined as Standard Play by a Protoss. Sure, it can be a transition into him getting a stronger advantage, which is true. But that action alone is cheesing. If you want to push the argument, you will lose. End of story.

Last point: This thread is stupid. Not to sound elitist, but you can't define what cheese is when there have been people on TL / in the SC community who have known about what it truly is for almost a decade.

Last last point: Hahaha chill ^_^/

FrostOtter

United States537 Posts

January 10 2011 01:13 GMT

#29

I think he was getting at that the term cheese is misused, but on the other hand there are already 40 million threads about that.

gulati

United States2241 Posts

January 10 2011 01:17 GMT

#30

On January 10 2011 10:13 FrostOtter wrote:
I think he was getting at that the term cheese is misused, but on the other hand there are already 40 million threads about that.

Quoting OP: "Two pylons and a cannon under zerg's ramp isn't cheese, it's just strong, and its only hole is probably the proxy hatchery(as shown by CatZ)."

That is an invalid statement. That is cheese. I will slay this man with my bear-claw hands.

TheOnlyOne

Germany155 Posts

January 10 2011 01:26 GMT

#31

Yes i thought of "cheese" as it stinks; you can "smell" the strategy.

Its not necessary something that has "holes" ; but in the end its just a made up word i know only from SC ; so everyone has some form of definition for it; while most are somehow true / and others jut use the word without an idea at all (so yes, that sucks if some really "normal" strategy becomes somehow cheese in their eyes).

TALegion

United States1187 Posts

January 10 2011 01:35 GMT

#32

I have no literal description of cheese, but I describe in a simile (important parts underlined):

It's like someone who's significantly weaker and smaller than you starts a fight with you (for reasons unknown) and when you accept (because you have to. Ignore the bad moral of fighting someone who you know you'll beat)., they put of their fists. You assume, seeing as they put their fists, that it's a straight, regular fistfight. As a response, you put your fists up as well. And as soon as he walks up to you, you tense up your upper-body and get ready for a punch in the chest, and right as it looks like he's about to punch you, he puts his fists down and kicks you STRAIGHT IN THE CROTCH. (assuming that they don't think cheese is bad, and they're assholes about it) The littler person then starts jumping up and down and cheering about he badly he kicked your ass.

That's how I explain it to my friends. A dishonorable, surprise kick in the crotch in order to beat someone bigger than you.