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Just to make it clear. Semanthycs people, Semanthycs.
What is a cheese? Cheese is a kind of food made from milk.
When you think about "cheese", as in the food, what do you remember?
This:
![[image loading]](http://wwp.us.com/product/cheese/images/cheese.jpg)
See all these holes? That's what define a "cheese" strategy. It is full of holes. Which means that it is good, but has many weaknessess(ie. scouting is a huge hole of most cheeses).
STOP calling things that aren't weak as "cheese". And stop calling EVERYTHING cheese. Two pylons and a cannon under zerg's ramp isn't cheese, it's just strong, and its only hole is probably the proxy hatchery(as shown by CatZ).
Proxy hatchery, versus a cannon contain like that, is also NOT cheese. CatZ, the "inventor"(not really, but the one who used it the best) of this strategy explained it. To hold the hatchery, you need a shitload of cannons which will force a cancel on the hatchery(it takes long enough to build) and waste shitton of money from the protoss, and if you try to fight it at home your gateway will be too delayed to deal with it, and even, by some reason, you manage to hold it off, the Zerg player will already have expanded and will be worlds ahead. SO IT IS NOT CHEESE.
Banshees, some people like to call it "cheese". Doesn't matter if you have detection, getting detection too early will put you behind anyways, and you don't lose a whole lot from a banshee attack, esp. if you get about 5 workers, which isnt hard at all.
So please, stop calling everything "cheese". Cheese has holes. If something is strong and lacks counters, it isn't cheese. Even if it is countered, if it doesn't put you behind at all(ie. drones dancing under the ramp "counters" the two-pylon contain; hatchery can be canceled in time) IT IS NOT CHEESE.
Sorry for this rage, but I'm sick of people calling every single thing cheese.
Next time, think of its holes before calling it cheese. kthxbai
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I define cheese/trickery/tactics as sub-optimal play. Play that when countered has no long-term prospects. I contrast this with a strategy, that basically is your entire gameplan.
Day9 talks about this wonderfully in his 100th daily episode. He realized that winning wasn't about having a trick and hoping it wouldn't be spotted.
That said, it is true that many ignorant people scream cheese or claim you can't play "straight-up" or "standard". I think we've all heard it at one point or another. When I 10 gate on close positions I get accused of being a "rusher" and "cheeser". It's pretty funny actually.
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Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies on large parts on secrecy and/or psychological impact on the opponent.
A main characteristic of cheese is whatever the form, if scouted in time and answered correctly, it will almost surely fail and put the executed player at a severe disadvantage. - Taken from liquipedia
That being said, i'd disagree with you on banshees. (Okay, one banshee or two opening isn't that much) If a Zerg player is unprepared for say, 2 port + cloak, it will probably cripple him heavily, or even outright kill him.
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A "rush" is a extraordinarily super fast/early cheese, usually involving only workers or the most basic units (marine/zergling/zealot)
A "cheese" is an early game 1-base all-in designed to catch your opponent off guard before he has enough units and structures to stop you. Typically relies on close positions, quick build orders, and/or proxies. The outcome of a "cheese" play is that, almost always, one player is left crippled and has no chance of recovering. Thus, by definition a "cheese" game is one that is designed to never reach mid or late game.
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You aren't getting the point people. The very definition that people have about "cheese" is completly wrong. Cheese is something about HOLES, not something about "hurr durr psycho strat, hurr durr unorthodox, hurr durr trickery". HOLES HOLES AND HOLES.
Cheese isn't just used in SC2. I've even seen it used on Boxing, where a champion that is good, but has a lot of weaknesses(like, great footwork but beaten by any sort of pressuring from a strong fighter; can't deal with counter attacks; etc), is defined as a "cheesy champion".
It's all about the holes and weaknesses, not the nature of the strategy.
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Let's all give our own definition of cheese!
Or we can close this topic, because no good will come from it.
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The important part of defining cheese is that if the strategy fails, you're likely to lose the game. That separates it from conventional-but-powerful openings such as 4-Gate pushes.
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Dude I agree with the OP in many regards.
I define cheese as an attempt to end the game as quickly as possible, things that are decided and executed in the first 5 min.
A strong 7 min timing attack with VR, banshee, muta, bangling, w/e not cheese you have 7 min to look at his base.
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I thought the term cheese originated from the smell rather than it containing holes.
As in, bad smelling cheese = dirty play.
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On January 10 2011 08:43 Zephirdd wrote:
You aren't getting the point people. The very definition that people have about "cheese" is completly wrong. Cheese is something about HOLES, not something about "hurr durr psycho strat, hurr durr unorthodox, hurr durr trickery". HOLES HOLES AND HOLES.
Cheese isn't just used in SC2. I've even seen it used on Boxing, where a champion that is good, but has a lot of weaknesses(like, great footwork but beaten by any sort of pressuring from a strong fighter; can't deal with counter attacks; etc), is defined as a "cheesy champion".
It's all about the holes and weaknesses, not the nature of the strategy.
So what would be your definition of cheese then? What isn't and what is cheese for you? i'm not getting it.
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![[image loading]](http://i20.tinypic.com/nq9qqa.jpg)
Theres no holes in this cheese.
edit: someone can't spell ><
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The terminology is largely irrelevant, if a player focuses on early-game aggression it's because he's too afraid of playing a real game. I dislike people that focus on early game aggression because it means that regardless of whether or not I win, I will not get to play an exciting macro game.
Even if I just defend the cheese(woops) and then go back to macroing up. Great, now I have my macro game, but I also have an 80 food advantage and it's going to be as easy as a-moving his front to end it.
To me, starcraft is about big map macro games. All my fond memories of Brood War were intense half-map vs half-map epic struggles, won or lost by multi-pronged attacks, counters, clever drops and fakes and what have you. Unfortunately this is only really possible on one map in the pool right now, and that's Shakuras Plateau. Everything else feels like playing Brood War on Blood Bath, and honestly I feel like it's ruining the game right now.
If ICCUP changed it's ruleset to only allow players to play on blood bath, do you think many people would keep playing ICCUP? I mean, honestly, even the smallest bw 1v1 maps like destination still feel huge compared to awful maps like steppes of war and jungle basin.
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I think you mean semantics and not semanthycs. Not trying to be picky, but you use it in the first line and repeat it for emphasis. I thought you misspelled it on purpose for irony or something at first, but I don't think that was your intent after reading your argument, with which I agree for the most part.
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On January 10 2011 08:49 jdr_ wrote:
To me, starcraft is about big map macro games. All my fond memories of Brood War were intense half-map vs half-map epic struggles, won or lost by multi-pronged attacks, counters, clever drops and fakes and what have you. Unfortunately this is only really possible on one map in the pool right now, and that's Shakuras Plateau. Everything else feels like playing Brood War on Blood Bath, and honestly I feel like it's ruining the game right now.
.
Nothing is like playing BW on Blood Bath.
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Honestly most "pros" just call cheese what kills them before they are allowed to set up "proper" macro.
Any strategy that beats someone else's is legitimate, no matter when it hits. Cheese is just a timing attack that hits early.
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On January 10 2011 08:56 Mankeyz wrote:
Honestly most "pros" just call cheese what kills them before they are allowed to set up "proper" macro.
Any strategy that beats someone else's is legitimate, no matter when it hits. Cheese is just a timing attack that hits early.
Exactly. I see the frustration with cheese, but I am sick of the people trying to remove cheese from the game. Just learn to deal.
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I define cheese as a early high risk/high reward play with the intention of avoiding a standard game.
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Australia8532 Posts
"cheese" is from the smell - as in something gimmicky or "fishy" .. But i suppose if you want to go with holes - you can do that..
Cheese is a strategy that relies on some form of gimmicky, not-standard play. To achieve correct execution of these strategies it usually involves cutting harvesters/sacrificing some form of economy to force the point.. It means that if you don't do damage you will be behind economically as compared with standard play..
There is a HUGE difference between early aggression that doesn't sacrifice economy and cheese.
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Any strategy that makes you rage
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On January 10 2011 08:56 Mankeyz wrote:
Honestly most "pros" just call cheese what kills them before they are allowed to set up "proper" macro.
Any strategy that beats someone else's is legitimate, no matter when it hits. Cheese is just a timing attack that hits early.
A blind timing attack, all cheese is.
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Something that, if you knew it was coming, would be easy to stop, but, if it gets used on you when you are not prepared, then it kills you without you being able to do anything about it.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese
Already been defined, and what you said is actually not correct...
"Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted. "
THAT WAS DIFFICULT
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In my opinion "cheese" is best defined as an early game strategy which sacrifices a standard economic development in favour of an aggressive attack with either an overwhelming number of units (4gate) or a specific key unit (voidray/banshee). Obviously there are distinct differences between certain strategies which appear similar. A 4 gate might cut probes at 20 where as another might be high pressure with the intent to expand behind.
Obviously any early game push comes with a certain level of risk and the level of that risk is indicative of its "cheesiness". Take a ZvZ example: player A FEs with roach to defend while player B masses speedlings and throws them at player A. Assume player A holds this push with minimal losses. Then we would say that he is very far ahead because: he was able to defend the push while maintaining a strong economy; and because ZvZ midgame is almost always Roach based, he already has a considerable roach lead and will begin investing in roach upgrades sooner. Player B took a large risk hoping that player A would not be prepared for his aggression.
This being the case, I would say that player B cheesed because he sacrificed economy for a strong early game push and because he fail, he is now very far behind and must either tech to a "cutesy" unit or hope his opponent messes up.
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I classify cheese with two things:
1) It needs to be a mostly all-in strategy
2) It needs to rely on surprise to win
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How do people claim 4gate is not a cheese......MADNESS!!!!
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cheese is a term that has already been defined by the community (see liquipedia)
making your own "personal definitions" just hurts discussion
if there is no word for an idea you are trying to express, then make your own word, don't mutilate an existing term
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Calgary25980 Posts
Both of your examples are cheese, making this thread kind of dumb
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OP: If you are serious, then you are beyond confused about what SC is. Cheese has... nothing to do with holes. Or, whatever the hell you want to call it. Cheese is against standard play, and it is deadly because it is a surprise, just like a flank attack in real life combat.
There is no need to give your "interpretations" of cheese. It was defined many, many years ago, and is across the board the same.
Some examples of cheese: 6pool, cloaked banshee rush, cannon rushing.
So yes. Cannon rushing is cheese (the argument you opened with). That is not defined as Standard Play by a Protoss. Sure, it can be a transition into him getting a stronger advantage, which is true. But that action alone is cheesing. If you want to push the argument, you will lose. End of story.
Last point: This thread is stupid. Not to sound elitist, but you can't define what cheese is when there have been people on TL / in the SC community who have known about what it truly is for almost a decade.
Last last point: Hahaha chill ^_^/
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I think he was getting at that the term cheese is misused, but on the other hand there are already 40 million threads about that.
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On January 10 2011 10:13 FrostOtter wrote:
I think he was getting at that the term cheese is misused, but on the other hand there are already 40 million threads about that.
Quoting OP: "Two pylons and a cannon under zerg's ramp isn't cheese, it's just strong, and its only hole is probably the proxy hatchery(as shown by CatZ)."
That is an invalid statement. That is cheese. I will slay this man with my bear-claw hands.
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Yes i thought of "cheese" as it stinks; you can "smell" the strategy.
Its not necessary something that has "holes" ; but in the end its just a made up word i know only from SC ; so everyone has some form of definition for it; while most are somehow true / and others jut use the word without an idea at all (so yes, that sucks if some really "normal" strategy becomes somehow cheese in their eyes).
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I have no literal description of cheese, but I describe in a simile (important parts underlined):
It's like someone who's significantly weaker and smaller than you starts a fight with you (for reasons unknown) and when you accept (because you have to. Ignore the bad moral of fighting someone who you know you'll beat)., they put of their fists. You assume, seeing as they put their fists, that it's a straight, regular fistfight. As a response, you put your fists up as well. And as soon as he walks up to you, you tense up your upper-body and get ready for a punch in the chest, and right as it looks like he's about to punch you, he puts his fists down and kicks you STRAIGHT IN THE CROTCH. (assuming that they don't think cheese is bad, and they're assholes about it) The littler person then starts jumping up and down and cheering about he badly he kicked your ass.
That's how I explain it to my friends. A dishonorable, surprise kick in the crotch in order to beat someone bigger than you.
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EPT
