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Before I'm hit with nostalgia and replies such as 'it has always been this way so...', think about it for one second: is it really fair for a player to get an unfair advantage, just because his race is not shown?
Some strategies require a little tweak in the build order, and are (usually) only effective against a specific race. For example; when I'm Terran I like to use the 2rax pressure marine build against Zerg that's oh-so-popular nowadays, because I find it to be very effective. However, I would have to scout very early in order to know if I should be planting down that gas, or save up for a 2nd rax. Now lets say that I save up for a potential 2nd gas and scout to see if he's Z - nope, he's Protoss. Now my gas timing is off and I can't immediately get a tech lab, followed by a marauder and shells to do a little poke. Suddenly, one of the more stronger strategies in my arsenal (a fast expansion with some poking) is severely crippled.
On some maps with a more exposed natural, also against Z, I may want to get my gas before barracks so I can churn out mega-fast hellions. Random? No can do.
Vs. Z, I also like to wall off with my first depot in the event of 6pool. However, I don't want to wall off against Protoss, because it makes Void Rays more effective.
Vs. T, I ideally want to scout a little bit later, so I lose a tad of economy. A small disadvantage, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
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Now I also play P and Z (I play all races, I just swap and do not 'abuse' the random feature), and I have roughly the same problems. I always open 11 or 12 forge vs Z, but I will have to do a 13 or 14 forge on 2 player maps and maybe even a totally different style on 4 player maps when I'm unlucky. I do not think that this is fair.
ZvZ, I like to do the extractor trick. ZvP and ZvT not so much - can't do that, have to pick.
I could go on and on, but I'm curious as what the opinion of other people is about Random.
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Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage.
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I think randoms don't really have that much of an advantage because their race is not shown. Whatever advantage that may give is negated by them probably not being as good with the race they get as someone who mains one race.
Edit:On December 10 2010 09:49 holynorth wrote:
Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage.
lol beat me to it.
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It's part of the game, send a scout at 8 and problem solves.
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THe fact that you might have to scout slightly earlier is much less of a con than having to know how to play every single race.
Edit: People said what I was saying before me so I'll just elaborate. You seem to think that being random gives you some sort of huge advantage and if this was true wouldn't all the pros play random? Being able to play the same race every game and refine builds basically gives you a huge advantage over a random player who would have to play three times as many games to get that same amount of refinement. So, IMO this is not really a discussion topic.
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It's a balanced trade-off, not an unfair advantage. The cost of the element of surprise is having to know all 3 races.
Anyways, it's been discussed to death before.
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I don't see why there shouldn't be. It causes you to have another more universal build that can be good against everything. Some people don't care what race they play or just want to try out all of them randomly, hence why random exists.
There's really no other way to put it except to learn how to deal with these things. People will play random, and you just need to adapt to that. Don't blame the race they play but rather the way you play against that race.
Not to mention (like everyone else did =P) that playing random requires you to be quick on your feet, and know every match up is possible for any game you enter. If random's can choose what they're going to do the second they see what race they spawn as, I think you can too.
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that "unfair" advantage as you call it is countered by the fact that its way harder to play random over a single race.
thats the reason why there are pretty much no random player in any competive matches.
also your title says "is random really necessary" but your post says "omg remove random cause i have only one build per matchup and dont want to adapt".
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But the ladder matches you with those with similar skill. That gets rid of the one disadvantage Randoms have.
Also, just treat random as the 4th race. You need a specific build against Random just like you would with any other race.
(but no, I like random. I know OP said no nostalgia, but it's enough for me that it's always been like this)
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not seeing it as a real advantage since you have to know the game really well to do random and know all 9 matchups. you also lose (tiny amount of ) time going between s,s-d,e depending on the spawn and have to think on the fly.
But yes, random does force an early scout or a standard/safe bo
25. These military devices, leading to victory,
must not be divulged beforehand.
-Art of War
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On December 10 2010 09:52 KevinIX wrote:
But the ladder matches you with those with similar skill. That gets rid of the one disadvantage Randoms have.
Which also gets rid of the one advantage they have.
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This is honestly the game where random has the smallest imaginable advantage vs picking a race, compare it to even WC3 where you're picking your hero which greatly shapes the game before you know what race they are.
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On December 10 2010 09:54 TheFirstOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 09:52 KevinIX wrote:
But the ladder matches you with those with similar skill. That gets rid of the one disadvantage Randoms have. Which also gets rid of the one advantage they have.
The race is still hidden. I'm not sure what you mean.
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On December 10 2010 09:49 holynorth wrote:
Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage.
This pretty much sums it up.
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Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage.
Random is not necessarily at a disadvantage - most players have 1 race they excel with, and he has 0.33 odds of rolling that race against me. Sure, the other 2 players may be happy and have a skill advantage, but the 3rd player will play against his best race with an additional handicap. Also, I don't know if 'knowing more match-ups' is really true, as most ladder randoms I encounter simply all-in me by either proxying something, or 6pooling me.
I think randoms don't really have that much of an advantage because their race is not shown. Whatever advantage that may give is negated by them probably not being as good with the race they get as someone who mains one race.
They do not necessarily have to have 'less skill with the race'. If you meet them in rated, and they play mono-random, there's a fat chance that they are roughly equally as skilled as you are on average with all 3 races. They may lose to your main race with Z, they may be on equal levels with T and they may beat you with P - just an example of how the average can work. Saying that their advantage is negated by them having less skill is simply demonstrating that you most likely have a low IQ, as you would not be getting them in ladder if they had substantially less skill than you.
It's part of the game, send a scout at 8 and problem solves.
'It's part of the game' really is not a good argument, and sending a scout at 8 puts you at a disadvantage. If the Terran command center suddenly gets the same speed as a banshee and the same attack as a battlecruiser, I'm sure you wouldn't go 'it's part of the game' either. You are using your own frame of reference (most likely 'I don't really care') and then proceed to churn out an uneducated, low-IQ opinion. I really don't know what that contributes to this thread.
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Start complaining when a Random player wins an event.
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Another one of these threads... People who think like this need to go play random at high diamond and see how that works out for them.
Also, if the advantage really was so great we obviously would've seen more random players in the GSL and the only one that did get in wouldn't have gotten knocked out in the first round. You don't get matched up vs random players too often anyways, suck it up and use a generalized BO that's safe versus all races and/or scout sooner.
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On December 10 2010 09:57 Kitani wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 09:49 holynorth wrote:
Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage. This pretty much sums it up.
No, this does not sum it up. Read my post above, you are misinformed and so are all the other people that have posted in this thread so far.
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It's not really an advantage, if you both scout at the same time you'll see what his race is in the middle of the map because he's going to have to scout you. ZvT, he's going to scout you because he wants to see if you are doing 2 rax pressure. There are a lot of things each race can do that is pretty cheesy, either way the advantage goes away with scouting. He's at a disadvantage if he doesn't scout because this game relies on information.
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They have to remember a lot more builds and timings, etc. whereas the normal player (the 1 race player) can perfect all of his timings and every little meticulous detail of his play a lot more easier. Good scouting positions should be one of these. Also, this doesn't mean that the random player doesn't need to scout himself. You'll see his race before it's too late if you're good with your scouting, to sum most of this up.
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I'll quote IdrA to those of you who are saying you need to be good at 9 matchups:
On April 23 2010 14:51 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2010 14:47 rauk wrote:
random isn't bullshit, you have to be proficient in 9 matchups.
i guess i don't have a huge issue with racepicking (i guess it isn't totally fair, but whatever), more that tasteless is apparently the only person who gets to do it for some arbitrary reason when HD says that every other player "needs" to pick random only? you dont need to be proficient in 9 matchups, you need 9 gay builds that take advantage of the fact that you unfairly handicap your opponent.
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On December 10 2010 09:59 emc wrote:
It's not really an advantage, if you both scout at the same time you'll see what his race is in the middle of the map because he's going to have to scout you. ZvT, he's going to scout you because he wants to see if you are doing 2 rax pressure. He's at a disadvantage if he doesn't scout because this game relies on information.
And he's playing random and thus withholding crucial information. Thereby; most builds do not require scouting or later scouting (i.e. 6pool on 2 player maps), so your argument is invalid as well.
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No. A random player has to know 9 matchups. You have to change one little thing or maybe play a little safer or maybe scout a little earlier.
Live with it.
For the record, I never run into any random players who cheese.
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Random players that cheese every game are the scum of the earth.
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It helps if you think of random as the fourth race, rather than a strategic handicap. In theory, in a perfectly balanced game and with a player who played all 3 races perfectly, going random would certainly be an advantage. But in reality, it's just as much a handicap to the random player as it is to his opponent. It takes longer to improve general mechanics without that consistency, and it is almost impossible to reach that super high level where the race basically becomes an extension of your mind.
Against a random player, you need to discard builds that only work against one race, and start with a general opener. It's hard to do when you like to stick to one effective build, but just look at it as an exercise in broadening your horizons.
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I think random is awesome, basically you gain a small informational advantage early game but the tradeoff is that you don't know each matchup as well as a player who chooses their race.
From your post it seems that your play is kind of inflexible, and random players force you to deviate from your standard build orders so you find it annoying. Maybe "always" doing one opening vs certain races isn't the best way to play? I don't mean to criticise, but maybe it's good for your development as a player if you are, for example, occasionally forced to actually play a straight up TvZ rather than just autopilot two Rax every game.
I don't really understand your argument...random players force you to actually scout and react to what they are doing, hence random makes the game unfair? If it bothers you that much, then create a new generic build order with several transitions that you can "always" do against random players =/
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
This has been discussed to death. OP, if you really think random has an unfair leg up, i strongly advise you ladder as random for a 100 games. You can come back here and share your thoughts then.
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On December 10 2010 09:57 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage. Random is not necessarily at a disadvantage - most players have 1 race they excel with, and he has 0.33 odds of rolling that race against me. Sure, the other 2 players may be happy and have a skill advantage, but the 3rd player will play against his best race with an additional handicap. Also, I don't know if 'knowing more match-ups' is really true, as most ladder randoms I encounter simply all-in me by either proxying something, or 6pooling me. Show nested quote +I think randoms don't really have that much of an advantage because their race is not shown. Whatever advantage that may give is negated by them probably not being as good with the race they get as someone who mains one race. They do not necessarily have to have 'less skill with the race'. If you meet them in rated, and they play mono-random, there's a fat chance that they are roughly equally as skilled as you are on average with all 3 races. They may lose to your main race with Z, they may be on equal levels with T and they may beat you with P - just an example of how the average can work. Saying that their advantage is negated by them having less skill is simply demonstrating that you most likely have a low IQ, as you would not be getting them in ladder if they had substantially less skill than you. 'It's part of the game' really is not a good argument, and sending a scout at 8 puts you at a disadvantage. If the Terran command center suddenly gets the same speed as a banshee and the same attack as a battlecruiser, I'm sure you wouldn't go 'it's part of the game' either. You are using your own frame of reference (most likely 'I don't really care') and then proceed to churn out an uneducated, low-IQ opinion. I really don't know what that contributes to this thread.
I thought you were just misinformed at first, but you are clearly a troll now.
Putting a player at .33 odds of getting there best race is a disadvantage. And the fact that they have to practice a theoretical three times the amount to equal you in skill is a huge problem.
Stop whining and scout early.
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On December 10 2010 09:58 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 09:57 Kitani wrote:On December 10 2010 09:49 holynorth wrote:
Random is already at a disadvantage of having to know more match-ups than you.. Stop complaining about their one advantage. This pretty much sums it up. No, this does not sum it up. Read my post above, you are misinformed and so are all the other people that have posted in this thread so far.
How? When random you need to know all 3 races and how to react to dozens of builds for every single race they play as and against. And you're saying despite that, the fact that the enemy doesn't know what race you are for like 2:30?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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EPT
