EPT
GuMihofOu, incidentally.GomTV protecting Boxer? - Page 20
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TMTurtle
183 Posts
GuMihofOu, incidentally. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On December 01 2010 10:55 ohnoGG wrote: Why does everyone say after the round of 64 it is random? The brackets are established at the round of 64 and players advance to face players parallel with them. While no one can 100% predict the winner in any match, if the brackets are established to increase the chances of a favorable race or encounter, it can be done at this stage and continue into later rounds. It's not as if Boxer wins his first TvT and then randomly draws an opponent from the other 31 players in the tournament. He had a 50% chance of facing Polt or Joon and no one else. That's half Terran or half Zerg. A coin toss, but if Polt was the favored player in that series with a higher chance of winning, then it would be more than likely of Boxer facing Polt in round 2 instead of a Zerg. In both season 2 and season 3, the first match ups parallel with Boxer in his group have been TvX with him always getting one of the only TvT, his safest matchup, in the entire tournament opening round. So in both the Ro32 and Ro16 there was a 50% chance of meeting a Terran based on the players immediately around him in his group. And while this did not happen in season 2, since CoreJJang, a Protoss, upset the WC3 favorite Lyn, a Terran, in the first round, Boxer instead faced the Protoss. It should be said that this does not confirm or deny anything, as it could be said that any player in Boxer's corner of the group have the exact same chances based on race and that 50% is indeed a coin flip chance either way for better or worse. But the fact that all players face similar odds does not ignore the fact that those odds consistently give Boxer a 50% chance of his best matchup for the first 3 rounds of the tournament, ignoring any player skill gaps between adjacent winners Polt, Jinro, and Moon and their opponents this season. But regardless of any of this, it is absolutely not up in the air as the tournament advances, as the brackets can only advance forward on their tracks. You can't predict who will win, and surprising upsets do happen, but it is possible to guide things along gently under favorable circumstances if brackets are manually arranged at the start, which is the real issue. But in GSL2 they didn't, at all. Pretty much every group had a similar chance of a T progressing down any route and getting lots of TvTs. It just happens that Boxer was the one who went down a TvT route because that's how the games went. Across all brackets it could have happened wherever he was based on the potential outcomes of matchups. That it did happen is just chance/coincidence, but it doesn't matter where he was, it could still have happened even if he was in an entirely different slot of a different bracket, so it wasn't fixed in any way. | ||
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Wetty
Australia419 Posts
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
On December 01 2010 06:44 Rekrul wrote:  wtf does that meeeeeeeeeeeeean | ||
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DentThat
United States22 Posts
On December 01 2010 11:10 Wetty wrote: Have you thought to look at any of the other terrans who got a fair way? Its possible they played more TvT's than BoxeR did Yes, as stated in my first post, in the GSL3, RO64, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it! There is a surprisingly low number of TvT's and Boxers in the vast majority of them | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On November 30 2010 15:02 travis wrote: well, im also pretty disgusted by the amount of people that seem to think it would be ok (or are even supportive of) purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament, especially one with such a large prize pool. <3 u took my word from my mouth SR | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
I don't tyhink what they are accusing of is purposeful rigging of a competitive tournament. People are going overboard with what their accusations. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On December 01 2010 06:42 ohnoGG wrote: To argue that intentionally preparing the brackets of an unseeded preliminary tournament for prize money by saying that many other professional tournaments do it for entertainment value is a poor excuse for the practice. Everyone else does it, so it must be acceptable everywhere? You have to remember that these first three GSLs are not just entertainment. They are both the professional lives for the players and teams as well as a business for the event organizers. While it may seem advantageous for organizers to guarantee star players advance and rake in more viewers and support and prizes for those players, these games are also being played for ranking points for future seasons. The place players finish could make or break their future GSL appearances, and if any player, even in the first round, is manually set up with a favorable match instead of given a random opponent, even if it means knocking out another star, then the results are skewed by the organizers to ensure their star players persist and continue to pull in more viewers and profit at the expense of sacrificial players. To say that such artificial arrangement is beneficial to the sport because it benefits the event organizers so they have more viewers and in turn more money and advertising to continue, really damages the image of the sport as legitimate competition, at least to me. In the video of the OGN casters discussing the BW match-fixing scandal, it was said: One of the appeals of e-sports is that it's pure - hard work should always prevail. I think it is healthy for everyone to discuss this early so something can be done if this is indeed true. Remember, e-sports isn't just about watching the big names duke it out in the final rounds - it's about showcasing the talents of everyone who is trying their hand at playing the game competitively, allowing everyone an equal and fair chance to make their mark on the scene. Seeding is one thing; however, prior to GSL2, Boxer was just a big name from BW. Any special treatment towards him would be seen as rigging. Also, rigging is the act of creating favorable conditions towards a certain party, it does not necessarily have to guarantee a 100% result, but the intent can still be there. Seeding is placing proven players further in the tournament based on their results, but from that point onwards their brackets should be somewhat random. What GOM is doing in GSL2/3 cannot be classified as seeding. On December 01 2010 00:16 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Seeding is meant to make things more fair. Rigging is meant to make things more unfair. Those arguing for seeding being fair and therefor rigging being fair don't really get it. On December 01 2010 03:18 Plexa wrote: Do you think its mere coincidence that Moon and Boxer can meet in the RO8 like Boxer and Nada did last season? And that Moon has the easiest set of maps of any Zerg in the Ro32? Clearly the mods think this is worth investigating otherwise they would have closed this eons ago. To end this off, this is pretty much my concern: (my post from page 5) + Show Spoiler + On November 30 2010 16:31 IntoTheEmo wrote: 10000% agree. Not saying GOMtv DID rig their tournament, but after reading like 3/4 of the posts here, many of which support a rigging of a tournament so early in the life of a competitive game, I am honestly shocked. Are people oblivious to the fact that the livelihood of the other players are also at stake in such a tournament? That they feel that it's okay to do it so that they can see the more popular players go at it in the later rounds. I mean yeah it's great for fans and it would be beneficial for GOMtv to have it that way too. But people forget that the true focus of e-sports should be supporting the players. And no I do not mean supporting the veterans/hyped players. Everyone needs to have a somewhat fair chance. From a GSL thread, If they did encourage participation of their tournament, but blatantly made it so top players were favored in either a map pool or in a choice of match-up, well, basically that is a slap in the face to the newcomers to the scene, at least in the opinion. Also, to me, this does not seem like the right way to promote e-sports. (Once again I'm not saying GOM rigged anything). Here's an example. You're  TurN, a really promising rookie (he's seriously 7-0 in PL) who just made it through to the Ro32 of OSL. Wow you're on your way to a Royal Road. Lets assume advancing through rounds increases your payout exponentially. OGN sets up their own Ro32 brackets (not based on Ro64).Grats, you're paired up against  Bisu, arguably #1 Protoss in BW, who was knocked out early last OSL and thus OGN wants him to advance to Ro16 this season to make the brackets more interesting.Okay not too bad. It's still possible that you might win. Then OGN removes the thumbs down feature on their Map pool. It ends up being: TurN vs BisuGame 1: Central Plains Game 2: Empire of the Sun Game 3: Central Plains (Really farfetched, but meh trying to illustrate a point I guess) Central Plains is a heavily Protoss favored map. 25ish PvPs so far. How would you feel? From what I understand for GSL, at least according to the thread I searched for here, Ro16 is worth 4 more times prize money than Ro32. It's one thing to get randomly matched up against someone really good (like OSL group selection etc), but if it wasn't, that's over $1000 USD that you just lost to a tournament wanting to showcase their star attractions in the final rounds. If you have read it up till this point, thanks for reading, I felt strongly compelled to voice my opinion regarding this. Edit: wow i totally screwed up using TLPD, fixed that LOL slightly embarassing Edit: To anyone discrediting this due to Boxer facing Nada in Ro8 instead of the finals, even so, the damage already has been done. The difference between Ro64 and Ro8 prize money is huge, and could have denied someone a fair chance of earning thousands of dollars - refer to my spoilered quote ^ | ||
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ohnoGG
United States8 Posts
On December 01 2010 10:59 Lonyo wrote: But in GSL2 they didn't, at all. Pretty much every group had a similar chance of a T progressing down any route and getting lots of TvTs. It just happens that Boxer was the one who went down a TvT route because that's how the games went. Across all brackets it could have happened wherever he was based on the potential outcomes of matchups. That it did happen is just chance/coincidence, but it doesn't matter where he was, it could still have happened even if he was in an entirely different slot of a different bracket, so it wasn't fixed in any way. Oh I certainly can't deny the total number of Terrans in both seasons of the GSL and the probability of any one of them reaching the later rounds of the tournament in any group. And I may have been a bit too excited about the numbers, considering how strange I think they are. The low number of mirrors in any matchup guarantees that any race will advance decently well. But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments. Even so much as giving Boxer a TvT, or any player any advantage, in just the opening round of a preliminary tournament, ignoring any chances in future rounds, to determine where they rank in upcoming tournaments, simply for the benefit of boosting that player's chances at acquiring guaranteed entrance into the seeded tournaments for greater presentation value, is dishonest in what should be a random environment. Some people will say this is fair and right. That it's great for legendary players to be given these slight advantages because it will raise viewership, give fans lots of games to watch, and give them a spot in future tournaments. That in a fair open tournament where no players are given free entrance, previous winners are split up so they don't have to battle on opening day or in unfavorable matchups, and instead face off against a random rookie who has little to no chance of winning, just for the sake of entertainment. Others will see this as an unfair manipulation of the brackets in an important tournament with incredibly large prize money at stake, as well as ranking points for future tournaments for players from all around the globe. And such that knowingly arranging that any player in an open tournament, no matter how many tournaments they've won or fans they have, even one pushover first round opponent to almost entirely promise they advance at least one round is tantamount to fixing the match so that player cannot possibly lose. In such a series of determining tournaments setting the stage for the headliners of next year, transparency is an absolute must and that the dice should roll however they may, without a sleight of hand to turn them over in any player's favor. | ||
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vesicular
United States1310 Posts
On December 01 2010 12:23 ohnoGG wrote: But this is more a consequence of the bracket organizers deliberately dispersing the races and top players across the groups in a somewhat seeded arrangement in a series of tournaments that should be randomly designed to determine the best players for the upcoming 2011 seeded tournaments and not pre-arranging them to guarantee the most spectators for these and future tournaments. I'm not all that positive it does guarantee the most spectators. Nada vs Boxer would have been epic regardless of when it occurred. That said, of course you're going to psuedo seed these GSL's. Their goal is to get the best players into Code S for next year. Putting Boxer and Nada together in Ro64 doesn't do that, when it's obvious the two are better than a lot of other players we've seen. Plus, it's a partial crapshoot anyway. The best players *will* win regardless, look at Leenok as proof of this. Everyone wants to throw out previous experience, or ladder ranking or what have you, but in some ways they do (and should) matter. If anything is unfair, it's a totally random seeded and placed tourney. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On December 01 2010 12:44 vesicular wrote: I'm not all that positive it does guarantee the most spectators. Nada vs Boxer would have been epic regardless of when it occurred. That said, of course you're going to psuedo seed these GSL's. Their goal is to get the best players into Code S for next year. Putting Boxer and Nada together in Ro64 doesn't do that, when it's obvious the two are better than a lot of other players we've seen. Plus, it's a partial crapshoot anyway. The best players *will* win regardless, look at Leenok as proof of this. Everyone wants to throw out previous experience, or ladder ranking or what have you, but in some ways they do (and should) matter. If anything is unfair, it's a totally random seeded and placed tourney. Seeding would be to place Boxer directly into Ro64. Rigging is setting him up to play a certain match up past Ro64 to try to keep him in the tournament for as long as possible, it does not have to mean setting him up to win the entire thing. Also I don't get how people fail to see this. Ro32 Unknown Player A vs Unknown Player B -> Unknown Player A has a pretty good chance of getting $1700 from $400 + seeding points Unknown Player A vs Boxer -> Unknown Player A's chances just got drastically decreased to get $1700 from $400 + seeding points I don't think it's right that Unknown Player A gets subjected to this kind of thing if it's done on purpose, as you can see the difference is worth more than $1000. | ||
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Xerros
United States39 Posts
I wont say i support it, nor will I say I don't like the idea, but calling it rigged is too far, imo thats suggesting players are being payed to throw matches which is not the case at all. after all a tournament is run on the basis that the better players will advance, and if they don't its only because they lost to someone who is an even better player (or occasionally just got lucky), the idea that they would set boxer up for success holds many rewards like ~it will engage the community better ~help boost boxer as an icon for SC2 ~boxer's status as an icon will help the community grow. all while holding true to the fact that to actually win he needs to have the chops to beat his opponents in Ro4 and/or grand finals, and if he can do it he deserves the title, because Ro4 and grand finals have the strong tendency to be the REAL challenges in tournament play. so in summation: if indeed he is given an easy path to Ro8-Ro4 on purpose, hes still not likely to win unless he has the skill to prove he can win the GF and Ro4-8 matches, and if thats the case its very likely he has the skill to play through a harder path. and if he loses theres a decently small chance that he might have taken out someone that could have otherwise gone farther or won it all even, but when we reach this level of speculation, i must say that its a calculated risk that Gom thought was worth taking (if indeed they do rig brackets), and i frankly don't blame them, it may keep a few individuals down for the time being, but it furthers the cause of the community as a whole. | ||
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Xerros
United States39 Posts
On December 01 2010 13:02 IntoTheEmo wrote: Seeding would be to place Boxer directly into Ro64. Rigging is setting him up to play a certain match up past Ro64 to try to keep him in the tournament for as long as possible, it does not have to mean setting him up to win the entire thing. Also I don't get how people fail to see this. Ro32 Unknown Player A vs Unknown Player B -> Unknown Player A has a pretty good chance of getting $1700 from $400 + seeding points Unknown Player A vs Boxer -> Unknown Player A's chances just got drastically decreased to get $1700 from $400 + seeding points I don't think it's right that Unknown Player A gets subjected to this kind of thing if it's done on purpose, as you can see the difference is worth more than $1000. i just saw this after i posted my last comment, note i did mean to keep the comment objective, idk how well i did it, anyway if theres one thing i ask you notice is my comment that goes something along the lines of, " although it keeps one or a few players down [for the time being], it furthers the goals of the community as a whole, it theoretically helps to grow the community, and pump up fans to see their favorite players go farther etc. , i might also add on a personal note that this should not be a permanent ploy, only until SC2 can establish a firm community, until then those put in boxers path can do nothing but try to beat him. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
Either way.... if they set up a Boxer Vs Moon fight I would pay BIG money to go see it. Can the LEGEND of War3 himself compete with the Gods of Starcraft?(The Pinnacle of competitive gaming!) The Fifth race finds himself lost and in the Emperor's territory. Kalimdor is far, far away, whispers of fighting demons and Elune are but a distant memory. Guy's don't forget W3 itself as a competitive e-sport was huge(disregarding Korean scene) you can argue it is the largest E-Sport outside of BW in Korea. Anyway as you can see by influencing little thing's like this, is feasible in my eyes. I can say that a Boxer Vs Moon has the possibility of bringing in WAY more viewers than the Boxer vs Nada series. Moon has a worldwide support of gamers, I feel moreso than Broodwar. I really really really want Jinro to lose even though he's one of the last foreigners, but if anybody were to take my Moon out, I'd be more than able to live with the fact that it was a Westerner himself toppling the 5th race. Man I'm so excited CHRIST! | ||
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Blackhawk13
United States442 Posts
Seems to me like that would be where the rigging really should take place ^_v | ||
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Aus.Force
Australia1278 Posts
brackets are set, so its stupid to think otherwise. your just making up useless trivial matters imo im sure you think that steppes being in every zerg game is rigged too... random is random, its not like is one in a million possibilites. its one in nine.... | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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Panzamelano
Colombia248 Posts
On November 30 2010 13:59 Fenneth wrote: It's human nature to find patterns and coincidences in random data. I'd suggest holding back a little on the accusations of wide-scale conspiracy based on a few scraps of flimsy data. i think this is the real answer to this whole post actually. | ||
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dormer
United States1314 Posts
On December 01 2010 11:44 DentThat wrote: Yes, as stated in my first post, in the GSL3, RO64, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In RO32, only 2 TvT's, Boxer gets 1 In the GSL2 RO16, there's only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it In the RO8, only 1 TvT, Boxer gets it! There is a surprisingly low number of TvT's and Boxers in the vast majority of them The reason why this isn't very convincing data is that past the Ro64, Gom can't control the matchups. They gave Boxer a TvT in the Ro64, yes; but the winner of that TvT had to play the winner from a TvZ - if the Z won, then Boxer would have played a zerg. And it goes on like that every round. You can't say that in GSL2 Ro8, Boxer "got" the only TvT. He didn't "get" it from anyone, that's just how the brackets developed. The opposite side of Boxer's bracket had 3 terrans, 3 protoss, and 2 zergs - Boxer COULD have played any of them, it just so happened that Nada advanced to the Ro8, and so did Boxer. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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