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I am also having a lot of problems in TvZ. I can't keep up with zerg's macro unless I go for some aggressive strategy early on. If zerg holds this off they're in good shape and will win with macro.
I also have big problems dealing with the zerg's army composition. Roaches, lings, banelings, and mutas are like the perfect combined-arms-warfare machine. Mutas from air, roaches from range, lings melee, and banelings do splash for a combined army with insane dps. Using changelings, ling scouting, or overlords, the zerg can scout my army composition, quickly adjust, and fight on creep to surround my forces.
And if I'm not very aggressive, they can get to late game with ultras + broodlords and that's death.
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On September 25 2010 20:49 Yilar wrote:
How to kill zerg as terran:
Contain him so he only gets to mine main and nat and then just harass those with banshees helions, drops or a few vikings to kill ovies, once the bases are mined out you've won the game. Don't overextend and whatever you do don't go on creep (raven or scan it to kill it). It's all about stopping zerg from getting map control.
How are you going to contain the most mobile army, mutaling?
Banshees looses effectiveness once mutas pop, and even before that 3 queens can defend fine. Hellions wont do enough damage with queens, spines and roaches. Are you going to gamble that one hellion drop before mutas pop will ruin his economy?
Mutaling IS map control; that, creep & OL's. How are you going to hold xelnaga towers by the way? splings are very cost-effective in that regard, 50mineral scv/marine wont hold it. Say on metalopolis, where they are crucial to hold.
Especially on cross positions, Z can macro like crazy, how are you going to stop it with hellion/banshees? You need serious firepower (thor/tanks, tanks/rines, MMM) to stop expos from going up but muta/ling is devastating in midgame.
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Honestly this thread should be closed. I've seen 20 different valid arguments and players post about what the OP did wrong and it seems his ego is making him believe he is infallible. If you want help: make a help thread in strategy and be open to criticism. If you want to cry about overpowered T v Z, I'd more than love to show you the door.
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Why dont you try spreading your bio out vs the banelings? Stupid Terran players being to lazy to use more then 1A to micro, In sc1 when i played Terran i had 1-6 full and I could stim and micro fine vs Zerg dont let the banelings take out "all your units" But Fyi Mech play is better vs Zerg. Start practicing it. TvZ is easy ( I play random )
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I've watched the replay a bunch of times. Here's what I think.
1) As someone mentioned earlier, taking out the natural was great but Pryde lost the resource battle. He lost like 8 marines and 2 tanks. I think zerg lost like 5 zerglings. Pryde had I think 2 tanks and 2 marines at his base after the battle. Also, one rax and one factory. I don't see how he can do any harass in the immediate future given that zerg has banelings and more speedlings to deal with terrran's way too small army at that point. Maybe when Pryde gets some more buildings up but then it's a push, not harass.
2) Are people really suggesting using scans to kill a couple of creep tumors that early in the game when macro is so huge?
3) I agree that you made too many turrets.
4) I agree that your scvs were weighted too heavily at your main. .
5) Cause of loss by a mile was obviously the battle below the high yield. I thought your micro was quite good but there was no friggin way you are winning it even with perfect micro and tanks sieged ahead of time. No combat shields and no medivacs was what really killed you. Your marines had so little survivability to deal with the mutas. You can throw in the thor or whatever if you like but if you are doing any kind of bio, I don't see how you can omit medivacs.
6) As mentioned before, the decision to attack the 3rd was wrong. It wasn't even producing yet. Too far away etc. Had you attacked his natural instead, you wouldn't really have to worry about a counter at your natural.
7) Also, do you really need that many tanks if you are doing a bio/tank combo vs bling/muta? I know your attack force didnt have too many but you had another 3 back at your expansion. Seems like you should have more marines and marauders instead of those wasted tanks at your exp.
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Sigh... if there ever was a situation where an ascii-facepalm would be justified, it would be now.
But no, I aim to become a very valuable member of this site so I'm going to go ahead and do it the gentlemen way:
On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. .
Well, since drones are the only way to mine gas and minerals, I'm gonna make a wild statement here and say that killing only a few drones is much more effective as a means of eco harassment than destroying hatcheries. This should be common knowledge to anyone, drones probes and SCVs are everything in this game unless your opponent is double-saturated or something.
And don't say it's not possible to kill drones with Hellions.
On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive.
Yeah sure. Well I've only seen this one replay of you but from what I've seen your understanding of army positioning and your situational awareness during combat sucks ass, even though this is the most important feature of a terran player. At the end of the game you began to siege your tanks when his banelings already killed your bioball, even though you saw him long earlier. Instead of sieging your tanks earlier to defend the position, you chased the Zerg probably thinking that he's afraid of you and going to run away, which obviously was wrong. Had you sieged your tanks a few moments earlier and would he have attacked you then, his banelings and lings would've been gone before they did any damage at all.
You also couldve spotted his army way way earlier if you'd just spent a few clicks on sending a marine to the xel naga tower to get vision of the area.
Your army size was also really small. Your mineral and gas count accumulated a lot during some points in the game. For example during your m&tank push you accumulated 500 minerals and 300 gas which you didn't use at all until your push was over (in which, weirdly enough, you did nothing but stand around in the middle of the field, a click and let your marines & tanks get perfectly surrounded so I don't know where your "high skill level" APM went, certainly not into econ).
Instead you just built two more tanks and a few more marines which effectively were of no use to you in the game. You could've used the money to set up several things which would have annihilated your opponent (you had like 800 gas when the "fight" in the middle started which is ridiculous if you're just on two bases), like a better army (god forbid) with Thors or just a very strong follow up push (man, you just destroyed his hatchery and what do you do? sit back and exercise bad macro play).
You also got supply blocked a lot later on in the game. You got blocked then you realized "oh shit I'm supply blocked" and built two supply depots. That stuff just cannot happen.
On September 25 2010 11:31 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:25 torm wrote:On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:
Maybe i just retard? LOL 1. Its generally a good idea to split your workers evenly among your expansions, you had like 30-40 scvs in your main and maybe 15 at your expansion. If you had split properly, you would have had more resources and your army would not have been so lackluster. 2. You got caught out of position and paid for it, what did you expect? 3. If you're worried about a counterattack, build your buildings in front of your expansion like every other terran does instead of leaving behind THREE tanks unnecessarily. 4. You pushed way too early considering how small your army was, coupled with getting caught out of position, it comes as no surprise that your army got destroyed. 5. You're concerned about the mineral cost of medivacs, yet you overcompensate with your turret placement. Place turrets effectively and you will be able to spare minerals on medivacs. If you had not done such a poor job you would have been able to take the game pretty decisively as taking out an early hatchery is huge. 1. I transfered 8 scvs over at the start of my expansion. (gas took alot) 2. Out of position. I don't really know what to say to this. is it possible not to get caught out of position? only thing that comes to mind is stimming a marine ahead of army. 3. I don't really agree. 4. The push accomplished what i wanted it to. Got me way ahead. Cant really argue there. 5. I never found 4 turrets to be considered over compensating. also to the guy pointing out i should have harassed more. how? I think after watching the game 4 or so more times i think i should have just waited for more bio. But it just seemed very strange it was so hard to follow up with a push attack.
#1 Wow yeah, that was a really pro move. Still, doesn't help that you were way oversaturated at your main the entire game and undersaturated at your expansions for a long freaking time.
#2 see what I wrote on position above
#3 Oh well you might not agree with him but you're wrong. No other way to say it.
#4 Got you "way ahead" eh? You lost 750 minerals and 250 gas, he lost erm... his hatchery and maybe on or two lings? Which is like 400 minerals + a little mining time which made no difference since he had no drones anyways, plus gas is a lot more valuable to Zerg than minerals. That's anything but way ahead. Coupled with your excellent macro skills (lol) this push got you behind if anything.
#5 If you're so worried about how effective you put your resources to use, you should first start learning to use them at all. See the stuff above for what I mean.
On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:44 MythicalMage wrote:
Constructive Criticism:
1) You scouted the zerg in close positions, yet made no attempt at any harass/pressure. You didn't even throw down a bunker or anything.
2) You didn't get any addon on your barracks, and you didn't get stim. How can you push without stim? It also seemed like you were lacking on production facilities when you expanded, but that's just a gut feeling, nothing solid.
3) You move your not enough marines too far forward, and let your tanks get surrounded by zerglings.
4) You scouted muta baneling, and yet you continued to make marine tank, without medivacs, and without shields.
5) Your micro/positioning was really awful in the second "battle." You effectively sacrificed all your tanks.
6) You made a third CC with nowhere to expand to safely.
7) You were floating upwards of 900 gas, with no air tech. (Medivacs, or ravens.)
8) Then you died, and didn't gg.
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
Well boxer certainly wouldn't run after the Zerg army thinking that his unsieged tanks will roflpwn his lings/blings. He also probably would do a lot more damage during the early game push. If you had rallied some marines to your attacking location, you would have additional marines to support your push, plus if you did anything but focus fire the hatchery while the lings surrounded your entire army you would really be "way ahead" after that fight.
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Frankly dude you're mighty arrogant but the only reason you're even at 1300 is that you're Terran. If you played Zerg, you would be in Plat League. Seriously.
I have the same problem with my real life buddy (Habit, some of you WC3 players will know him), he's at 1300 with Terran, has 0 understanding of the game whatsoever, has very poor macro/micro and generally plays like utter crap, but is at 1300 of diamond because he's Terran.
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On September 25 2010 11:25 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:18 MythicalMage wrote:
This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level. i play a high skill level. im 99.9% positive. I've taken maps off nearly all the top players on the NA server. I have a good sense of what im talking about. As to getting out played. I think your missing the point entirely. i did ALOT of damage was over 30 FOOD ahead. and i COULD NOT punish my opponent. this is a high level game. Just yesterday infact ryze out macrod morrow on the ladder much like he did to me this game.
You do not play at a high level, and neither do I. I watched the game and you played horrobly. Your push was incredebly stupid and bad. You never sieged your tanks before the battle and when your army consists of a lot of tanks that early in the game it is a insta loss.
Also when you have a lot of tanks it gives you a lot of power, but less mobeletly. You dont attack the faurthes away expanisjon then, as others have pointet out. You attack the closest base. You never killed off the creep with is very important when your bases are that close.
You played bad in almost every way, and yet you complain about imbalence and say you are a top level player.
What you should have done is:
Kill off the creep with a few scans and a little group of units. Then slow push on the high ground and attack downhill. Always have some tanks sieged so you wont be taken by full suprise. Attack downhill and kill off everything. Run the marines back while the tanks kill the banlings and take some muta dmg. Then kill his mutas with your marines and win.
And get more marines. Way to few.
+ Show Spoiler +This reminds me of a pervius troll thread we had in the BW era. Was quite simmilar. Can it be a ghost from the past?
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Pride here is a tip: Go copy a build order or two from a top korean terran early game
The fact you think you are supposed to win by just a-moving around the map with siege marine all game makes me sick. Also, drop the ego, Ryze didn't seem to play at a level above most 1200 zergs.
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On September 25 2010 12:02 FindingPride wrote:
you didnt watch the game. I can tell because u said no attempt to harass or pressure. also. boxer couldn't micro those marines any better. The banes never got to them really. So i dont know why people are saying i need to micro better. If you could kindly point out how id love to hear it. Maybe at the end battle but the game was over anyways at that point but im not talking about that im talking about the midgame push .
This is just arrogant man, you're a 1300 terran losing to zerg. To say you micro as well as Boxer is foolish. When banelings come don't stim and run your marines away leaving your tanks to die, split your control groups and marine balls if you're as good as a pro. If not, knowledge of your opponents position before advancing all your tanks unsieged is a must. If you are pushing blind, at least leapfrog your tanks so that you don't get caught with the brunt of your army completely uneffective for the first few seconds of the fight (resulting in their deaths).
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go mech if you cant stop banelings from surrounding you
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I'm not sure if it helps, and I'm really bad player. But In theory, if you sent one marine to the Xel'Naga Tower instead of going next to it, you'd see a big ling/bling force and then you'd siege your tanks before the attack, maximizing the effect. From replay I see your siege tanks siege'd too late. But what do I know, it's just a theory.
And your main was over saturated, but I think everyone already pointed it out.
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