EPTWhy i think TvZ is hard. - Page 4
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Veetz
Canada109 Posts
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over... so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ? | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On September 25 2010 13:08 royal.cze wrote: wow... seriously people make these posts ? get a couple tanks and slow push with your bio focus firing Banelings... if you dont have the apm to select a control group and tell them what to do im sorry your bad... if he tries to fly into your army with mutas to pick off the tanks stim and destroy his mutas... a thor at each expo makes it so hard to mutas to harass mineral lines because in order to focus a turret they will have to use the magic box which in turn means multiple mutas will be getting hit by multiple turrets and marines... move a thor into your main bio mech push... this forces your opponent to magic box again... any mis micro means the games pretty much over... so seriously how bad are the terran in diamond, its quit clear after watching the replay and listening to you say its pretty much impossible to do everything anyone has suggested that they are quite awful. such a faceroll race and when your faceroll doesnt work you cant think of a way around it ? I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical. | ||
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
On September 25 2010 13:14 ibreakurface wrote: I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical. ROFL yah leaving a thor at your mineral line well the remainder of your army sits at the fron of your expo is a HUGE waste... wow seriously not sure what to say to you. and yah pressing 3 or whatever you have your tanks grouped into and right clicking on a baneling ball rolling towards to you is pretty micro intensive since 1 shot from one siege tank still kills a group of banelings.... you dont shot the mutalisks... the point is to keep your marines alive so they rape the mutas when the banelings are dead... yah shoot and scooting seems like a pro idea when speeded banelings are on your tail... you made my day seriously... | ||
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
secondly this ryze kid has good map control because you give him the xel nagas the whole game... before you move your army across the map send a few units to clear the xel naga... if you were just engaged by mutas you should probably scan any high ground you are about to go up... instead of walking into a baneling ambush. combat shields helps reduce the kill radius of banelings and it also helps your marines live alot long against mutas. you have the biggest 1 a syndrome ever. put your marines in 2 siege your tanks with 1 and run back wards with your marines... yah you might lose a tank or two but if you focus the baneling groups with your tanks instead of the lings... which should be easy since you have your tanks in 1 and your marines are already running backwards ( not shoot and scootin ) since they will just kill marines... also you should have more marauders to soak the lings and banelings for the tanks. and dont say you dont have the ability to do that since you end the game at like a buck forty... you must be doing something instead try and focus with the tanks. work stim and combat shields into your build early you had the gas to be researching them so long ago... no reason at all not to have a starport...especially since you have SO much gas you arent using... not to mention it was nice of you to let him spread the creep to your doorstep but maybe less mules more scans so he doesnt have that map control. saying seems balanced at the end of games doesn't really accomplish anything. ps if you cant win the micro game against muta baneling just practice one of the 20 all in builds terran have at their disposal and win that way. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
On September 25 2010 13:36 statikg wrote: Although royal is saying it like an ass, thors are the answer to this. Have a thor by the time they have a large number of mutas and its gg, mutas countered and by now you should be on 2 base. Keep one thor at each base and build up a few tanks, 1-2 more thors, blue flame hellions, medvacs and keep pumping those marines, now push and win. Your only job is not to get baneling busted or muta harssed which is super easy if you have a thor. You should probably do some hellion harass or marine drops in there somewhere. not trying to be an ass i just see this same argument every day and I answer it everyday... this guy says he gets muta harassed in the replay the mutas dont even fly into his base... hes use to 1a'in his army into an opponents army and winning the game with terran which is fine but when you reach a certain level that isn't going to work anymore... | ||
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sc2lime
Canada513 Posts
Bottom line is the Zerg played well and the Terran just massed bio tank the whole game expecting to win. He was missing key units in his army like thors and marauders to tank the baneling damage and is overly aggressive when his units are inferior to the opponent with better micro/game sense. Like any other RTS out there, you have to adapt to win. Your bio army got shut down when you went for his expansion so you should have stayed in base for a bit until you get a more suitable army. | ||
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royal.cze
Canada287 Posts
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On September 25 2010 13:03 ibreakurface wrote: If you micro 9 range on vikings isn't so useless. vikings dont have the turn speed to micro mutas. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote: http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967 First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio. In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion? So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting. Perfect execution of an opener. and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2? I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard? I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing. When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish. Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad. But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment. So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding. I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have. Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play. Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective. Bio gets owned by bling/infestor, mech gets owned by nothing except very well micro'd mutas and ultras. As a zerg player the following units are the hardest for me to deal with with my ling/bling/infestor/muta build: Early reaper harrass Hellion drops or run by's Tanks..always. Thors critical mass Battlecruisers unscouted almost always = GG unless i've already teched hydras for vikings | ||
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Edso
Canada112 Posts
On September 25 2010 12:52 Dr.Frost wrote: Yeah TvZ is not hard for T at all. I just played vs you 4 times and you didn't have to do anything to win. Just macro barracks and 1A every game. Doesn't seem that hard to me.. Just saying. It's easier than any other match. I don't think its that simple O,o. 1A into zerg, gg ur marines got blown up by banes and now mutas are wrecking ur tanks/rauders. I don't really think army vs army is the imbalance in zvt. Early game pressure, and the amount of options T has is, and even then the imbalance only really shine in top level games. Anyway I watched you're replay, and yes you did micro you're marines great, putting them in different hotkeys so u can easily micro was a smart choice. But honestly whats the point of even microing them marines if you don't have something to tank the banelings, you can't really rely on siege tanks to clean up all the banes ( Unless you're holed up in a nice defensive position) more marauders would have probably won you the game on ur second confrontation at the bottem gold minerals. You siege you're tanks, you hit you're marine hotkey send them to the back, and all the banelings blow up on you're marauders instead of just chasing you're marines out of siege tank range. If zerg actually try to micro the banes and chase them marines then concussive shells would prob slow half the banes and keep em in the tanks range. Then you're marines just clean up the mutas. You also had the armory to produce a thor, also great vs banes and mutas w/ marine support! Just my 0.02 cents man , you can micro those marines as much as you want but if you don't have some sort of blocking unit to put in between the banes and you're marines, there gonna die inevitably. | ||
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Slago
Canada726 Posts
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sc2lime
Canada513 Posts
http://starcraft2reps.com/download.php?id=1969 Here's a replay I just played. Now I am not a good player at all but in 25:00 in game, that is how you should have approached a zerg with ling/banes/mutas. Now I know I lost a lot of units in that fight, but I felt that he was ahead in this game and I was able to barely come out on top and take out his army. The point is how you need to keep your marines alive since they would mostly be the ones who will do damage to your oppenent's lings/mutas. It's not perfect but what I do is before engaging, I hotkey all my marines in a secondary hotkey and put them in the back of my army; that way once the banelings come, I run my marines and let other units hit the banelings as they pass. I hope this helps. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 25 2010 13:14 ibreakurface wrote: I'm not sure if you're serious, no one is going to waste chunks of their army to idly sit in an expo to protect it (thor) and even if they did, one thor wont do much vs 10+ mutas. Also Focus firing banelings would take a LOT of apm... individually picking out each unit you want dead? Also you are assuming a person can shoot and move at the same time. You can't shoot at mutalisks while you run from banelings. Next time you the phrase "your bad" less, its quite hypocritical. One thor VS 10+ mutas = no good..but one thor and 3-4 well placed turrets = good. | ||
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cutiebutt
8 Posts
Anyhow being constructive, Zerg takes a HUGE hit when they lose their natural that early in the game, it's that simple. One base zerg can't compete with one base Terran. Unless he builds a second hatch in his main, you will outmacro him. You FF'd the Hatchery, and let your tanks get surrounded and your marines get killed. Even so, you still took down the expansion. You need to be more aggressive when you deal a blow like that to Zerg. | ||
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Edso
Canada112 Posts
On September 25 2010 14:47 kmillz wrote: One thor VS 10+ mutas = no good..but one thor and 3-4 well placed turrets = good. soooo what you wait to have a thor and 3-4 turrets to protect a mineral line? kinda stretching ur minerals. | ||
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DanceDance
226 Posts
ive talked to a few different terrans on battle net that tell me they think baneling should be nerfed and every other zerg unit should get a buff. i kinda agree with them. I agree with this 100%. Baneling are too much of a problem for Terran. They make Marines obsolete which leaves you without enough options to deal with Mutalisks. What other options do you have? Thors are too slow, easily outmaneuvered and extremely expensive. Vikings I would argue are not cost effective against the Mutalisk ball. Raven has HSM - maybe that is the answer? I think something definitely needs to change with Banelings. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On September 25 2010 15:16 DanceDance wrote: I agree with this 100%. Baneling are too much of a problem for Terran. They make Marines obsolete which leaves you without enough options to deal with Mutalisks. What other options do you have? Thors are too slow, easily outmaneuvered and extremely expensive. Vikings I would argue are not cost effective against the Mutalisk ball. Raven has HSM - maybe that is the answer? I think something definitely needs to change with Banelings. Use multiple control groups for your units. Unit positioning. Micro. Set. Match. Problem solved. | ||
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